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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1360 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2016 :  08:26:24  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"...[they] and other conservative evangelicals interviewed in central Iowa say they feel as if they have been abandoned."

Welcome to what us atheists have had to endure, year after year.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/30/us/donald-trump-christians-gay-marriage.html

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25713 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2016 :  16:53:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unlike atheists, these folks have only themselves to blame. Those who ignore history, etc.. Every time conservative Christians have chosen the path of social stagnation, they have failed. Slavery, women's suffrage, civil rights, miscegenation, abortion, bedroom privacy, gay marriage. Conservative Christians have been abandoned every time the rest of the world decided to forge a path towards fairness. You'd think they'd be used to it by now, and so maybe they'd be a little less whiny.

Of course, their Bible tells them that being persecuted is a virtue, so they probably feel a need to manufacture strife for themselves. Hitching their wagons to the Trump train was a good way to help with that, perhaps.

(Don't even get me started on the ridiculousness of the idea that progressives should be tolerant of the evangelicals' intolerance, or else be hypocrites.)

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25713 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2016 :  20:34:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, down deep in this week's Sift:
A fascinating story in The Washington Post about the conversion of Derek Black, son of the founder of the white-nationalist Stormfront web site, who as a teen-ager had his own radio show where he helped popularize the notion of white genocide. He has now left the white-nationalist movement, which has created a family crisis.

His story reminds me of a New Yorker article from last November about Megan Phelps-Roper, granddaughter of Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church, the people who picket funerals with “God Hates Fags” signs.

In both stories, conversion away from a hateful ideology happens not through logical argument, but by getting to know and admire people that the ideology condemns. The personal relationship opens up a channel for new ideas to come in.
This is why things like the old "Out" campaign for atheists are still important. The more people there are who identify publicly as atheists, the more likely it'll be (through sheer statistics) that regular people will meet, befriend and respect out atheists. When the ultra-religious then demonize atheists, those other people will know better.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend

83 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2016 :  12:32:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Christian Hedonist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.



Of course, their Bible tells them that being persecuted is a virtue, so they probably feel a need to manufacture strife for themselves. Hitching their wagons to the Trump train was a good way to help with that, perhaps.


I think us Christians throw the term persecution around too loosely. The Greek word dioko indicates it is a persecution that leads to a person having to flee or run away from in order to be safe. At least the commentaries I read indicate this. That is not happening in the US.
Edited by - Christian Hedonist on 12/16/2016 12:34:58
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9637 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2016 :  08:35:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think us Christians throw the term persecution around too loosely.

Of course, you/they do.

But when has such pesky things as truth ever come in the way when you have the chance to feel Righteous(tm)?


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend

83 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2017 :  13:55:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Christian Hedonist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

I think us Christians throw the term persecution around too loosely.

Of course, you/they do.

But when has such pesky things as truth ever come in the way when you have the chance to feel Righteous(tm)?


I get it. But when the bible talks about persecution it is talking about a person being pursued to the point of having to flee, life in danger if you stay. At least that is what my commentary says about the Greek in Mathew 5:10. Also, 1 Peter talks about persecution may only come from doing good works. We should not ascribe natural consequences for persecution.

This bothers me a great deal as well. The US church is a shambles.
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Dredge
New Member

Australia
20 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2017 :  23:42:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dredge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
[i]Originally posted by Christian Hedonist
I think us Christians throw the term persecution around too loosely. The Greek word dioko indicates it is a persecution that leads to a person having to flee or run away from in order to be safe. At least the commentaries I read indicate this. That is not happening in the US.

The Kleins are Christian bakers in Oregon who were fined $135,000 for refusing to prepare a cake for a same-sex marriage ceremony. I would definitely call this persecution!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25713 Posts

Posted - 01/23/2017 :  10:25:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dredge

The Kleins are Christian bakers in Oregon who were fined $135,000 for refusing to prepare a cake for a same-sex marriage ceremony. I would definitely call this persecution!
Why? They chose to open their doors to the public, so they were required by law to serve the public. They knew the law when they opened their shop. If they didn't like it, they should have worked to change it, rather than try to ignore it.

And if (a big if) they were exercising civil disobedience along the lines of MLK, they should have owned the consequences like MLK.

Besides, supporters of the Kleins raised over half a million bucks for them. So sad that they'll turn a profit on their "persecution."

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend

83 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2017 :  12:13:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Christian Hedonist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dredge

[i]Originally posted by Christian Hedonist
I think us Christians throw the term persecution around too loosely. The Greek word dioko indicates it is a persecution that leads to a person having to flee or run away from in order to be safe. At least the commentaries I read indicate this. That is not happening in the US.

The Kleins are Christian bakers in Oregon who were fined $135,000 for refusing to prepare a cake for a same-sex marriage ceremony. I would definitely call this persecution!
What Dave W. said.
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Dredge
New Member

Australia
20 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2017 :  18:37:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dredge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Dredge

The Kleins are Christian bakers in Oregon who were fined $135,000 for refusing to prepare a cake for a same-sex marriage ceremony. I would definitely call this persecution!
Why? They chose to open their doors to the public, so they were required by law to serve the public. They knew the law when they opened their shop. If they didn't like it, they should have worked to change it, rather than try to ignore it.

And if (a big if) they were exercising civil disobedience along the lines of MLK, they should have owned the consequences like MLK.

Besides, supporters of the Kleins raised over half a million bucks for them. So sad that they'll turn a profit on their "persecution."

The penalty doesn't fit the crime. For refusing to bake someone a cake, the penalty is a $135,000 fine!! Does that sound fair to you? If I took a car to a paint shop and the painter said, "No, sorry; I'm not going to paint your car" (for whatever reason), would he get fined $135,000? Nope.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25713 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2017 :  05:55:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dredge

The penalty doesn't fit the crime. For refusing to bake someone a cake, the penalty is a $135,000 fine!! Does that sound fair to you?
Oregon legislators and voters have decided it is: a maximum of $75,000 for each victim. The state sought the full $150K ($75K for each woman), but the judge said no, only he'd only fine the bakers $135K.

If I took a car to a paint shop and the painter said, "No, sorry; I'm not going to paint your car" (for whatever reason), would he get fined $135,000? Nope.
Because "for whatever reason" isn't a civil rights violation in the State of Oregon. A public business refusing service based on a customer's sexual preferences is.

In fact, in Oregon, the owner of a paint shop who refused you and your spouse service because you're Christians would, indeed, be liable for a fine of up to $150,000. Does that sound fair to you?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dredge
New Member

Australia
20 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2017 :  21:33:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dredge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Dredge

The penalty doesn't fit the crime. For refusing to bake someone a cake, the penalty is a $135,000 fine!! Does that sound fair to you?
Oregon legislators and voters have decided it is: a maximum of $75,000 for each victim. The state sought the full $150K ($75K for each woman), but the judge said no, only he'd only fine the bakers $135K.

If I took a car to a paint shop and the painter said, "No, sorry; I'm not going to paint your car" (for whatever reason), would he get fined $135,000? Nope.
Because "for whatever reason" isn't a civil rights violation in the State of Oregon. A public business refusing service based on a customer's sexual preferences is.

In fact, in Oregon, the owner of a paint shop who refused you and your spouse service because you're Christians would, indeed, be liable for a fine of up to $150,000. Does that sound fair to you?


So, the trick the Klein's should have used is, refuse service without giving a reason.
--------------------------------
If the painter refused me service on account of me being a Christian, I would think a $150,000 fine way too steep.  So, no; it doesn't sound fair.   Besides, I wouldn't want someone painting my car if they didn't want to, no matter what the reason.  
-------------------------------
Western civilization has become a civilization of sooks and whiners.   
In Britain (and maybe in other nations as well) if you call a black man a "bad name", the police get called in and you will be charged with an offence!  What is this - kindergarten?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25713 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2017 :  09:24:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dredge

So, the trick the Klein's should have used is, refuse service without giving a reason.
Yup. It's hard to prove discrimination without evidence.

If the painter refused me service on account of me being a Christian, I would think a $150,000 fine way too steep.  So, no; it doesn't sound fair.
[Shrug] Oregonians feel differently.

Western civilization has become a civilization of sooks and whiners.
Just look to Trump for numerous examples of that. The man has skin so thin you can read through it.

In Britain (and maybe in other nations as well) if you call a black man a "bad name", the police get called in and you will be charged with an offence!  What is this - kindergarten?
No, Brits just don't have a guaranteed right to free expression.

Heck, on that side of the pond, if someone sues you for lying about them, it is up to you to prove your innocence. The exact opposite of the system we have in the U.S.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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