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EnergyGem
New Member

5 Posts

Posted - 11/16/2016 :  04:21:07  Show Profile Send EnergyGem a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi all,

I've come across a fascinating book that talks about high level spiritual things from a scientific perspective. This book is intriguing as it talks about many similar things to what people in mystical states mention such as seeing into parallel dimensions and interacting with beings from other worlds etc.

This book is called Zhuan Falun and it is from the Buddha Law School of Cultivation however it is not Buddhism the religion or Daoism the religion, it's something more profound. It seems to me to be more of a spiritual science as many of the terms and concepts in the book are talked about in a scientific down to earth manner instead of flowery mystical prose which I found very refreshing.

Now here is where it gets interesting, this book talks about the following things:


Other Dimensions - Levels Of Dimensions spanning into the microcosm and also outwards into the macrocosm

The Soul - It talks about people having a Master soul and a subordinate soul which is hidden from you but is at a more advanced level then you, it states some people have more then one Subordinate soul and some are of not of the same sex as you i.e males having a female subordinate soul etc.

Microcosmic worlds - This concept was very far out but it talks about there being worlds within you, countless worlds. Similiar to our world with life , water, animals etc. An analogy is zooming an an atom within one of your cells and realizing at that level of magnification it is just like our solar system. Then zooming into a single particle in that world and finding out it too is a vast world, apparently the level it can go onwards like this is beyond imagination.

Supernatural Abilities - In the book they mention that everyone has them it is just that they have atrophied. It goes into depth about this topic. Some abilites that are mentioned are precognition, retrocognition and remote vision.

The 3rd Eye - Talks about how at the front part of our pineal gland there is a complete structure of an eye there. Modern science calls it a vestigial eye but in the cultivation world they say this eye just naturally exists like that and it can be activated allowing one to pierce through this dimension and see other dimensions. It talks about how there are many levels to this 3rd eye and it goes into great depth about it.

Thoughts - This part was amazing. It talks about how a human brain is just a processing plant. How the real you is actually your soul, it's like your whole body and brain is just a vehicle and that the true commands are issued by your master soul, but this master soul is very tiny and it can switch positions while inside you and it can also expand and shrink. It can move from your brain to your heart and to other parts of your body and it is 'he' who calls the shots. Your brain is just the factory which your master soul sends his cosmic commands to which then create the forms of expression
and communication we use such as speech, gestures, etc.



These are just a few things that are covered but there are many many other things which blew my mind when I read it because of how it resonated with some of the mystical experiences people sometimes have, especially the multidimensional nature of reality and how all of them are hidden in our day to day perceptions of the world.

If this sounds interesting to anyone you can grab a copy of the book here:

http://en.falundafa.org/eng/pdf/ZFL2014.pdf

Dave W.
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USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 11/16/2016 :  08:04:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Welcome to the SFN!
Originally posted by EnergyGem

It seems to me to be more of a spiritual science as many of the terms and concepts in the book are talked about in a scientific down to earth manner...
If they're just using science-like words, without presenting evidence, then they're just being science-y, and not scientific.
The 3rd Eye - Talks about how at the front part of our pineal gland there is a complete structure of an eye there.
No, there is not.
Modern science calls it a vestigial eye...
No, it doesn't.

Those are the kinds of things I'm talking about as being science-y, not scientific.

The rest seems largely based on mind/brain (or soul/brain) dualism, which we know is false.

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EnergyGem
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5 Posts

Posted - 11/16/2016 :  21:30:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send EnergyGem a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Dave,

Some experiments on Dafa practitioners have already been performed, here's one of the findings:

http://www.pureinsight.org/node/189
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Dave W.
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26001 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2016 :  06:31:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, that experiment was lacking in proper blinding and controls; none of the raw data is available; KH solutions vary; "stable contractile activity" must refer to an average, but the authors neglect to state what it was or the range of activity in the "controls"; the horizontal axis of the charts is improperly labeled, and the article hasn't been subject to peer review. The article is an attempt at scientifically investigating Falun Dafa, but it is clearly a failed attempt with many flaws.

And its findings, if true, would mean that Falun Dafa practitioners could make other people twice as strong as normal, which would be such an amazing and simple demonstration that it should already be known world-wide. Using dumbbell weights, have regular people find their limit, then apply some Falun Dafa meditation energy to their arms via the holding Falun (Law Wheel) posture from a foot away, and bam, they can lift more. The fact that such demonstrations aren't seen at all strongly suggests that it doesn't work.

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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1457 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2016 :  11:47:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the analysis, Dave W.

The Soul - It talks about people having a Master soul and a subordinate soul which is hidden from you but is at a more advanced level then you, it states some people have more then one Subordinate soul and some are of not of the same sex as you i.e males having a female subordinate soul etc.

EnergyGem, one can imagine. This sounds much like the fursonas that me and fellow furries experience. Beware that feeling apparent truth doesn't mean that you have found actual truth. Human ape brains are easily fooled.
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EnergyGem
New Member

5 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2016 :  02:37:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send EnergyGem a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Well, that experiment was lacking in proper blinding and controls; none of the raw data is available; KH solutions vary; "stable contractile activity" must refer to an average, but the authors neglect to state what it was or the range of activity in the "controls"; the horizontal axis of the charts is improperly labeled, and the article hasn't been subject to peer review. The article is an attempt at scientifically investigating Falun Dafa, but it is clearly a failed attempt with many flaws.

And its findings, if true, would mean that Falun Dafa practitioners could make other people twice as strong as normal, which would be such an amazing and simple demonstration that it should already be known world-wide. Using dumbbell weights, have regular people find their limit, then apply some Falun Dafa meditation energy to their arms via the holding Falun (Law Wheel) posture from a foot away, and bam, they can lift more. The fact that such demonstrations aren't seen at all strongly suggests that it doesn't work.



Falun Dafa is still rather new to the scientific community but I believe there will be more thorough and complete tests that will be performed in the future.

Here is another test that was performed:

http://www.pureinsight.org/node/2573

Peer review began in 1665, there have been many scientific discoveries before peer review and peer review can be biased at times as was found here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/27/fabricated-peer-reviews-prompt-scientific-journal-to-retract-43-papers-systematic-scheme-may-affect-other-journals/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2015/07/08/fraudulent-peer-review-strikes-another-academic-publisher-32-articles-questioned/

Of course, many other scientists are now researching this new field and have come to various conclusions. Here are some other experiments done on meditation and qi gong practices:

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/461442-superhuman-energy-cultivated-by-meditators-its-science/?utm_expvariant=D002_02&utm_expid=21082672-18.dmPUWQm0QDq0pZBHW0FDfA.1

---

ThorGorLucky, consciousness is still something our current scientific community doesn't understand very well. There have been some small inroads but it is very elusive. This rather interesting article from Dr Jon Lieff where he explains this matter well:

http://jonlieffmd.com/blog/subjective-experience-brain

There are many ways to glean Truths from the universe and our current scientific paradigm is but one of them. Actually Master Li Hongzhi (the founder of Falun Dafa) compared our current science to Buddha Law. Here is what he had to say:

http://en.falundafa.org/eng/html/zfl2/zfl2.htm#8
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1457 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2016 :  10:08:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by EnergyGem


ThorGorLucky, consciousness is still something our current scientific community doesn't understand very well. There have been some small inroads but it is very elusive. ...

We don't know everything but we know enough to cross off bullshit. Everything that makes you *you* (memory, emotion, decision making, etc.) are processes in your brain. When it gets damaged, you change. When it ends, you are are forever dead. You can imagine otherwise, but imagination doesn't make it so.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2016 :  10:39:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by EnergyGem

Falun Dafa is still rather new to the scientific community but I believe there will be more thorough and complete tests that will be performed in the future.
That's what everyone says. That excuse is neither new nor unique to Falun Dafa.
Here is another test that was performed:

http://www.pureinsight.org/node/2573
They claim to have performed tests, but the page you linked to shows only "Abstract," "Background" and "Discussion" sections, with no detailed results, conclusions, data or figures provided. Look at this:
Studies at the cellular level reveal increased bactericidal activities of PMNs from Falun Gong practitioners.
Nothing supports that claim.
Furthermore, Falun Gong practitioners' PMNs exhibit increased life span in the absence of stimulation from agents such as bacterial lipopolysaccharide (LPS), but increased apoptosis upon LPS stimulation. Such changes in apoptotic responses of PMNs suggest an alteration of PMN functions in favor of a rapid resolution of inflammation.
No, such changes suggest that in the face of a bacterial threat, practitioners' PMNs self-destruct faster than normal. That might suggest that their immune systems are weaker that non-practitioners'.
We also applied micro-array technology to examine changes in levels of gene expression in PMNs. Drastic system-level changes in gene expression were detected in PMNs of Falun Gong practitioners...
Yet they don't bother to mention even a single gene by name or function. Nor do the authors bother to describe what a "drastic system-level change" is (it's not a term from genetics).
...while little changes were detected among non-practitioners, despite the differences in age and gender.
There should be no changes from baseline in non-practitioners, so the authors don't even know what they're talking about.
Most interestingly, the genes that are regulated in a consensus fashion among the practitioners...
That does not make sense.
...can be grouped into several functional clusters, which are directly linked to PMN functions in anti-viral immunity, apoptotic property and possibly longevity based upon a much more economical balance of protein synthesis and degradation.
Not a single bit of data is provided to support such grandiose claims.

Back to your response:
Peer review began in 1665, there have been many scientific discoveries before peer review and peer review can be biased at times as was found here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/27/fabricated-peer-reviews-prompt-scientific-journal-to-retract-43-papers-systematic-scheme-may-affect-other-journals/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2015/07/08/fraudulent-peer-review-strikes-another-academic-publisher-32-articles-questioned/
Yes, yes, yes. This is all distraction. The question isn't "is peer review reliable?" We know the history and problems with peer review. The question is, instead, "why aren't Falun Dafa studies good enough to be published in peer-reviewed journals?" Dismissing or down-playing peer review isn't an answer to that question.
Of course, many other scientists are now researching this new field and have come to various conclusions. Here are some other experiments done on meditation and qi gong practices:

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/461442-superhuman-energy-cultivated-by-meditators-its-science/?utm_expvariant=D002_02&utm_expid=21082672-18.dmPUWQm0QDq0pZBHW0FDfA.1
There is very little there supporting specifically Falun Dafa claims. And we know the benefits of meditation accrue without need of being wrapped in religion.

Besides, none of this (or the previous study) do anything to back up the utterly ludicrous claim that "there is a complete structure of an eye" on the front of the pineal gland (there is not). Or that solar systems are good models for atoms (they are not). Or that a soul exists.

Because even if the studies are correct and that Falun Dafa practitioners can affect both muscle strength and immune response, the truth of those claims would have no effect whatsoever on the falsity of others.
ThorGorLucky, consciousness is still something our current scientific community doesn't understand very well. There have been some small inroads but it is very elusive. This rather interesting article from Dr Jon Lieff where he explains this matter well:

http://jonlieffmd.com/blog/subjective-experience-brain
The lack of a scientific explanation doesn't mean that Falun Dafa is correct.
There are many ways to glean Truths from the universe and our current scientific paradigm is but one of them.
Name another method that has been as successful.
Actually Master Li Hongzhi (the founder of Falun Dafa) compared our current science to Buddha Law. Here is what he had to say:

http://en.falundafa.org/eng/html/zfl2/zfl2.htm#8
Oh, boy:
He said that in the Milky Way there were three thousand planets resembling that of man, containing lives identical to human beings.
He was quite wrong.
There are in fact more than three thousand.
There is in fact no evidence whatsoever of even a single other planet within the Milky Way resembling Earth and "containing lives identical to human beings."
He also said that there are three thousand chiliocosms in a grain of sand. That is, in but a single grain of sand there exist three thousand worlds like this that man inhabits, something unfathomable.
Something demonstrably wrong, really.
Today physics can merely figure out that a molecule is made up of atoms, and that an atom is made up of a nucleus and electrons. Further into the microcosm there are quarks and neutrinos. And that’s as far as it can go, that is all. Then what is, moving further downward, the origin of matter? Not even microscopes can detect quarks and neutrinos. Their existence is known only through the help of other instruments. As for answering what lies further down, man’s technology falls woefully short.
The faulty assumption is that there must be something "further down." If the answer, as modern science has it, is that those particles are packets of energy, then "what lies further down" is nothing. The problem here is not modern science, but the expectations of the religious.
As to large things, man believes that planets are the largest objects.
No, "man" does not believe any such thing. When was this garbage written? 1996? No, we already knew about super-massive stars, galaxies and even larger-scale structures a whole 20 years ago. The author is scientifically illiterate. Should we assume his criticisms of science are correct? Of course not.
The knowledge possessed by man today has reached its peak.
That's comedy gold, right there.
Nothing that is intangible or invisible is allowed for [within modern science], so the limitations it imposes are significant.
More funny stuff.
The Buddhas, Daoist deities, and Gods we speak of exist in other dimensions that man cannot touch or see. Then if those beings were to be discovered using the methods of today’s science, wouldn’t that make them scientifically proven? It would! But the West has set forth a definition of science, and anything that modern science is unable to explain gets categorized as theology or religion, without exception. It dares not acknowledge such things.
The author insists that Western science rejects that which it cannot explain, but that's simply a lie. Science rejects that for which there is no evidence. We can see many phenomena today that we cannot explain, but that science obviously accepts exist. Otherwise, scientists wouldn't be studying them, trying to explain them.
The science from Europe, confined by the framework it established, now finds itself unable to advance further.
Really, this guy is a laugh riot.
Were it to keep probing downward, what might be discovered would be something beyond the boundaries of its science. So it categorically lumps these things together as religion or theology.
No, that assertion itself is a category error.
The problem is that the definition of science has long been set in stone, and anything beyond its boundaries is categorically denied. No room is thus left for further progress.
No, the problem is that you insist on trying to justify your religion with science, and when that fails, you need somewhere to place the blame. It surely can't be your religion at fault, can it?
And there are some scientists, figures who are considered “accomplished” in certain fields, who have set forth a great many axioms. These scientists, such as Newton and Einstein, were very accomplished by the standards of ordinary people and could perceive far more than the average person. And the axioms they set forth, as with their scientific legacy, stands as a wealth of valuable knowledge. But that said, any research that takes place or understanding that’s arrived at via working within the boundaries of their thought is bound to observe certain patterns. If those who come after them work completely within the theoretical frameworks of these scientists, posterity will never surpass them nor experience new breakthroughs.
The irony is that Newton and Einstein broke theoretical frameworks that came before them. The author doesn't understand how science progresses at all.
When someone’s discovery or invention surpasses the confines of previously held axioms, it will be realized that the axioms set forth had been restricting people. That’s because there are higher forms of knowledge, and higher truths, to be found at higher levels. A good example is our knowledge of matter. It used to be that the smallest particle of matter known to man was the atomic nucleus. That’s no longer the case, however, for now there are quarks and then neutrinos.
And this new dollop of irony is brought to you by the fact that quarks and neutrinos were discovered by scientists. They didn't access any "higher forms of knowledge" or "higher truths" at any level above "science."
The point is that human beings have continually learned more about such things. But a new axiom itself will, upon the discovery of something else, serve as yet another restriction. Such is the case. The fact is that such axioms usually serve to limit people.
Historically, the axiom-breakers are the same people as the axiom-makers: scientists.
Einstein was no ordinary person. He found what religion, and even theology, taught to be true.
No, he did not.

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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2016 :  03:28:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't believe people still fall for this Buddhism nonsense.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2016 :  08:24:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

I can't believe people still fall for this Buddhism nonsense.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

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EnergyGem
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5 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2016 :  21:58:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send EnergyGem a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually Dave that first scientific test which I shared with you on Falun Dafa is completely sound, there is nothing unscientific about it. The following scientific data on similar experiments which I also shared with you from multiple researchers including Stanford were also scientific and real science. Contemporary science and today's scientists especially usually want to protect their current definitions and axioms stubbornly and are unwilling to change their points of view or broaden their minds. Actually many of the real accomplished scientists such Newton, Pascal and Decarte were all very spiritual people and didn't hold on to rigid scientific axioms.

Actually Master Li spoke about this matter, the fact that scientists these days aren't really doing science in the Truest sense but protect their axioms with emotion and not open minded reason:


---
"The most difficult things for people to abandon are their notions. Some people cannot change, even if they have to give up their lives for fake principles. Yet notions are themselves acquired postnatally. People always believe that these unshakable ideas—ideas that can make them pay any price without a second thought—are their own thoughts. Even when they see the truth they reject it. In fact, other than a person’s innate purity and innocence, all notions are acquired postnatally and are not a person’s actual self.

If these acquired notions become too strong, their role will reverse by dictating a person’s true thinking and behavior. At this point, that person might still think that they are his own ideas. This is the case for almost all contemporary people.

In dealing with relevant, important matters, if a life can really assess things without any preconceived notions, then this person is truly able to take charge of himself. This clearheadedness is wisdom, and it is different from what average people call “intelligence.” If a person cannot do that, then he is dictated by acquired notions or external thoughts. He might even devote his entire life to struggling for them; but when he gets old, he will not even know what he has been doing in this lifetime. Though he has achieved nothing in his lifetime, he has committed innumerable mistakes while being driven by these acquired notions. Therefore, in his next life he will have to pay for the karma according to his own wrong deeds.

When a person becomes agitated, what controls his thoughts and feelings is not reason, but emotion. When a person’s various notions, such as his faith in science, religion, or an ideology, etc., are being challenged by the truth of the Buddha Fa, he also becomes agitated. This causes the evil side of human nature to predominate, thereby making him become even more irrational; this is a result of being controlled by the acquired notions. He blindly jumps to conclusions or complicates the matter. Even a person with a predestined relationship can lose the preordained opportunity because of this, turning his own actions into eternal, deep regrets."
---

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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1457 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2016 :  11:16:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Being easily convinced of something is not broadmindedness/openmindedness, it's gullibility. Science is about trying not to be fooled and following credible evidence wherever it leads, no matter how one feels. Changing one's mind with newer credible evidence is broadmindedness/openmindedness. Crappy evidence, wishful thinking, imagined clearheadedness, and feelings can be dismissed.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2016 :  12:54:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by EnergyGem

Actually Dave that first scientific test which I shared with you on Falun Dafa is completely sound, there is nothing unscientific about it.
How do you know? Where is their data published? Did you double-check their math? Why did they do no statistical or Bayesian analyses, or at least not publish them?
The following scientific data on similar experiments which I also shared with you from multiple researchers including Stanford were also scientific and real science.
That article was media-filtered fluff derived from press releases and sound bites. Where can we read the originals?

But really, what I get here is that you've completely ignored my criticisms of the articles you've linked to (because you fail to address any of them specifically), and simply asserted their scientific superiority, as if it were - shall we say? - axiomatic.

You clearly want me (at least) to believe your claims, but a few sub-standard pages followed by "because I said so" isn't going to cut it. Why should I agree that the stuff you've presented is "completely sound" "real science"?
Contemporary science and today's scientists especially usually want to protect their current definitions and axioms stubbornly and are unwilling to change their points of view or broaden their minds.
You're just repeating the stuff you read from Master Li. It was unconvincing when he wrote it, and it's still unconvincing. It is a rationalization for avoiding proper scientific processes, not a positive epistemological framework. In fact, such rationalizations deny the possibility of an epistemological framework that would allow us to evaluate claims at all. When any criticism, no matter how mild, can be met with "you're just close-minded and stubborn," then any agreement can also be responded to with "you're just gullible." Either way, discussion and discovery come screeching to a halt, and thus science is made impossible.
Actually many of the real accomplished scientists such Newton, Pascal and Decarte were all very spiritual people and didn't hold on to rigid scientific axioms.
None of them were Buddhists, and ironically they held rigid religious dogmas. And Newton most certainly did hold to rigid scientific axioms in terms of what he needed to do to demonstrate that prior axioms were wrong.

What you're really not getting is that these scientists are remembered primarily for their scientific output, and not their spirituality. Especially since these guys weren't infallible. Newtons Laws of Motion do not depend upon finding the Philosopher's Stone. Pascal's insights into probability don't require agreement with his laughable Wager. And one need not be a devout Catholic to make use of Descartes' analytic geometry.

(And to be more precise, these three were most notable for their mathematics, not science as such.)
Actually Master Li spoke about this matter...
I know, I wrote about his rationalizations. Did you not read my comments?

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2016 :  13:33:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by ThorGoLucky

Thanks for the analysis, Dave W.

The Soul - It talks about people having a Master soul and a subordinate soul which is hidden from you but is at a more advanced level then you, it states some people have more then one Subordinate soul and some are of not of the same sex as you i.e males having a female subordinate soul etc.

EnergyGem, one can imagine. This sounds much like the fursonas that me and fellow furries experience. Beware that feeling apparent truth doesn't mean that you have found actual truth. Human ape brains are easily fooled.


I'm thinking ... Thetans...


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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2016 :  01:04:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
SMH, people only have one soul. I'm praying for you.

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