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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9648 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2017 :  07:29:21  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
During my forays around Facebook, I stumbled upon an argument why pro-lifers are wrong about abortion. Here's someone who build a Bible-based argument for abotion.

Hey conservatives, the Bible says when a fetus is alive and it’s not when you think

Looks like pro-lifers can go home now.
I think I recall arguments here at Skeptic Friends Network from Dave appearing in this article.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.

Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 04/20/2017 06:25:32

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25887 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2017 :  10:37:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I was getting into some of that with Christian Hedonist, but I can't say the arguments were mine.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Johangori
New Member

1 Post

Posted - 04/27/2017 :  13:48:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Johangori a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ima definitely use this argument next time its gonna be 'this conversation'. Thanks for sharing

Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive :)
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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend

99 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2017 :  12:40:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Christian Hedonist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is my response to the article.

It seems like a day doesn’t go by that we don’t hear the Right screaming that abortion is wrong because babies are alive from the moment of conception. This line of rhetoric is used to fuel conservatives in their holy war against a woman’s right to choose

The idea that people are humans from conception is not rhetoric but a true belief. Rhetoric implies insincerity or deceitfulness. Having this belief and expressing it does not contribute to these killings and is not rhetoric. Is the author saying that it is too dangerous to express a belief that a fetus is actually a person before it is born?
— a war that recently saw casualties on Black Friday when a Christian extremist walked into a Colorado Planned Parenthood facility complaining about Obama and “baby parts” and started shooting.

Mr. Dear was declared not competent to stand trial and is in a mental health institution. It wasn’t the anti-abortion beliefs but his own mental issues that led him to perform the shooting.
But what if life doesn’t begin at conception? What if the Biblical definition of “life” would allow even the latest of late-term abortions? What if right-wing Christians have it all wrong? To figure out if this is the case, it’s best to start at the beginning — specifically, in the book of Genesis. Please turn your Bibles to Chapter 2, verse 7:
“AND THE LORD GOD FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND, AND BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE; AND MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL.”
I don’t see how this is relevant because Adam was not conceived in a womb but created from dust. Adam is a special case and cannot be extrapolated to be that everyone gets breath of life at birth. I will discuss below that the phrase “breath of life” does not actually mean air moving into and out of our lungs.
Since the Bible is the word of God and God is infalliable, anti-abortion fanatics have nothing to complain about. Simply put, life begins when one draws his or her first breath. This, of course, isn’t the only reference like this. Job 33:4 reads:
“THE SPIRIT OF GOD HAS MADE ME, AND THE BREATH OF THE ALMIGHTY GIVES ME LIFE.”
. This is Elihu speaking which Job makes clear that he does not take his word as truth. You have to be careful with the book of Job because Elihu and Bildad give Job advice and say things to him that are contradictory to what is true doctrine. With this said, it does not say when the “breath of the almighty” that gives life happens. If the author is referring to Adam as an example, it does not fly because Adam was not created in a womb as I stated earlier.



Ezekiel 37:5-6 is also very clear on the matter:
“THUS SAYS THE LORD GOD TO THESE BONES: BEHOLD, I WILL CAUSE BREATH TO ENTER YOU, AND YOU SHALL LIVE. AND I WILL LAY SINEWS UPON YOU, AND WILL CAUSE FLESH TO COME UPON YOU, AND COVER YOU WITH SKIN, AND PUT BREATH IN YOU, AND YOU SHALL LIVE; AND YOU SHALL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD.”
“Once again, life begins upon the drawing of the first breath.”

This does not say that life begins at first breath unless you believe breath of god and actual breathing are synonymous. This does not bear out. The “breath of life” is what gives people life not actual breath. It is the force or whatever you want to call it that animates people or gives them consciousness. This verse also talks about god giving us sinews and flesh which we need to live but they do not cause life, just as breath does not cause life. Someone can have air moving into and out of their lungs but not have any mental capacity or consciousness.
Of course, there does seem to be some leeway. Leviticus 27 makes it very clear that babies have no value to God until they are one month old.

Where are the actual quotes? The valuation has to do with a special vow a person would make that was voluntary to offer a particular gift to god. The value was based on their “market value” of work in an agrarian society. It is not talking about someone’s intrinsic worth.

If anything, Christians should only be angry if a child is killed after he or she takes his or her first breath — especially since God gives them a recipe for a magical abortion potion in Numbers 5:11-31:
15 THEN SHALL THE MAN BRING HIS WIFE UNTO THE PRIEST, AND HE SHALL BRING HER OFFERING FOR HER, THE TENTH PART OF AN EPHAH OF BARLEY MEAL; HE SHALL POUR NO OIL UPON IT, NOR PUT FRANKINCENSE THEREON; FOR IT IS AN OFFERING OF JEALOUSY, AN OFFERING OF MEMORIAL, BRINGING INIQUITY TO REMEMBRANCE.
16 AND THE PRIEST SHALL BRING HER NEAR, AND SET HER BEFORE THE LORD:
17 AND THE PRIEST SHALL TAKE HOLY WATER IN AN EARTHEN VESSEL; AND OF THE DUST THAT IS IN THE FLOOR OF THE TABERNACLE THE PRIEST SHALL TAKE, AND PUT IT INTO THE WATER:
18 AND THE PRIEST SHALL SET THE WOMAN BEFORE THE LORD, AND UNCOVER THE WOMAN’S HEAD, AND PUT THE OFFERING OF MEMORIAL IN HER HANDS, WHICH IS THE JEALOUSY OFFERING: AND THE PRIEST SHALL HAVE IN HIS HAND THE BITTER WATER THAT CAUSETH THE CURSE:
19 AND THE PRIEST SHALL CHARGE HER BY AN OATH, AND SAY UNTO THE WOMAN, IF NO MAN HAVE LAIN WITH THEE, AND IF THOU HAST NOT GONE ASIDE TO UNCLEANNESS WITH ANOTHER INSTEAD OF THY HUSBAND, BE THOU FREE FROM THIS BITTER WATER THAT CAUSETH THE CURSE:
20 BUT IF THOU HAST GONE ASIDE TO ANOTHER INSTEAD OF THY HUSBAND, AND IF THOU BE DEFILED, AND SOME MAN HAVE LAIN WITH THEE BESIDE THINE HUSBAND:
21 THEN THE PRIEST SHALL CHARGE THE WOMAN WITH AN OATH OF CURSING, AND THE PRIEST SHALL SAY UNTO THE WOMAN, THE LORD MAKE THEE A CURSE AND AN OATH AMONG THY PEOPLE, WHEN THE LORD DOTH MAKE THY THIGH TO ROT, AND THY BELLY TO SWELL;
22 AND THIS WATER THAT CAUSETH THE CURSE SHALL GO INTO THY BOWELS, TO MAKE THY BELLY TO SWELL, AND THY THIGH TO ROT: AND THE WOMAN SHALL SAY, AMEN, AMEN.
23 AND THE PRIEST SHALL WRITE THESE CURSES IN A BOOK, AND HE SHALL BLOT THEM OUT WITH THE BITTER WATER:
24 AND HE SHALL CAUSE THE WOMAN TO DRINK THE BITTER WATER THAT CAUSETH THE CURSE: AND THE WATER THAT CAUSETH THE CURSE SHALL ENTER INTO HER, AND BECOME BITTER.
25 THEN THE PRIEST SHALL TAKE THE JEALOUSY OFFERING OUT OF THE WOMAN’S HAND, AND SHALL WAVE THE OFFERING BEFORE THE LORD, AND OFFER IT UPON THE ALTAR:
26 AND THE PRIEST SHALL TAKE AN HANDFUL OF THE OFFERING, EVEN THE MEMORIAL THEREOF, AND BURN IT UPON THE ALTAR, AND AFTERWARD SHALL CAUSE THE WOMAN TO DRINK THE WATER.
27 AND WHEN HE HATH MADE HER TO DRINK THE WATER, THEN IT SHALL COME TO PASS, THAT, IF SHE BE DEFILED, AND HAVE DONE TRESPASS AGAINST HER HUSBAND, THAT THE WATER THAT CAUSETH THE CURSE SHALL ENTER INTO HER, AND BECOME BITTER, AND HER BELLY SHALL SWELL, AND HER THIGH SHALL ROT: AND THE WOMAN SHALL BE A CURSE AMONG HER PEOPLE.
28 AND IF THE WOMAN BE NOT DEFILED, BUT BE CLEAN; THEN SHE SHALL BE FREE, AND SHALL CONCEIVE SEED.
The Big Guy clearly believes in the right to choose — as long as that choice is made by a man. Sure, the potion is magic but it causes an abortion no matter how you slice it.


Where does this talk at all about an abortion or a fetus even? You have to read that into the text. Nowhere does it say an abortion happened.
God even makes it clear that he considers a living, breathing human to be of more value than a fetus in Exodus 21:22, which dictates that if a man causes a woman to miscarry, he should be fined — but if he kills the woman, he will be put to death. If God considered a fetus alive, wouldn’t he impose the same penalty for both?


I will give the quote since they did not want to, I assume because it would contradict what they just said.

“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”

Pro choice people are assuming that the phrase “children come out” means that they are dead, a miscarriage happens but the passage never says that. It says if they are born and are alive then the men are fined, if they are born and are harmed in any way the one for one restitution is demanded. The text is a strong support for the pro-life argument from scripture.

Here is a literal translation by John Piper:

And when men fight and strike a pregnant woman ('ishah harah) and her children (yeladeyha) go forth (weyatse'u), and there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the husband of the woman may put upon him; and he shall give by the judges. But if there is injury, you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

In short, no one who claims life begins at conception is following the Bible. The Right’s anti-abortion movement is an absolute sham — just like “baby parts” and other misinformation they peddle to appeal to their unquestioning, intellectually-devoid base. Sorry, Christians, God is extremely pro-choice — perhaps more so than any liberal when you consider mass baby killings, genocides, and such.


Here are some actual bible quotes about life that give value to the unborn.

For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; marvelous are Your works and that my soul knows well. My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed, and in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them. (Psalm 139)

When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit…[saying] ‘As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy' (Luke 2:6-7)

If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. (Ex 21:22-25)

So the LORD said to him, 'Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the LORD?'" (Exodus 4:11)

“God has decreed, for one reason or another, that at least one-third of all pregnancies shall be terminated by a spontaneous abortion during the first trimester of pregnancy and that a number will be terminated after the first trimester,” the Christian Left blog notes. “It would appear that God does not have any more regard for the loss of a fetus than he does for the loss of a placenta or a foreskin despite the fact that these were living tissue as the result of conception.”
This is silly. With this line of reasoning then he would not have any regard for the death of a person after they are born either. But I guarantee they think people have value.
Conservatives should probably read those Bibles they use to beat others over the head. They might learn something — and then they can stop shooting up Planned Parenthood facilities, bombing abortion clinics, and generally being awful with regard to women’s bodies.
So it is conservatism that shoots up abortion clinics. If so this line of thought should be banned. As I have tried to show it is the conservatives that actually read the bible in full context. This was not a fair representation of what the bible says about life before or after birth but I don’t think that was the point anyway.

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Dave W.
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USA
25887 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2017 :  20:08:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Christian Hedonist

Mr. Dear was declared not competent to stand trial and is in a mental health institution. It wasn’t the anti-abortion beliefs but his own mental issues that led him to perform the shooting.
So are you claiming that Mr. Dear's "mental health issues" were the sole cause of his beliefs, and that the anti-abortion beliefs of other people had no impact at all on Mr. Dear's beliefs and actions?

Here are some actual bible quotes about life that give value to the unborn.

For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; marvelous are Your works and that my soul knows well. My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed, and in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them. (Psalm 139)
Clearly this passage is metaphorical (because objectively, people's "frames" are not made "in the lowest parts of the earth"), and so cannot have bearing on the abortion debate.

If not metaphorical, the fact that the author claims that his future was known to God before he existed as a person demands the conclusion that every abortion that occurs is predestined to occur, and nothing can change that. Arguing against abortion is to therefore argue against God's Divine Will.

When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit…[saying] ‘As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy' (Luke 2:6-7)
Even if we grant that a "baby" was "jumping" in "joy," didn't you just say that we shouldn't generalize from a single extraordinary case?

So the LORD said to him, 'Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the LORD?'" (Exodus 4:11)
And? This says nothing about when "life" begins, or when a fetus is "ensouled."

Of course, the fact that God builds people deaf, blind, and mute is monstrous. For that one thing, God deserves to be reviled, not worshiped.

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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend

99 Posts

Posted - 07/14/2017 :  08:54:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Christian Hedonist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

So are you claiming that Mr. Dear's "mental health issues" were the sole cause of his beliefs, and that the anti-abortion beliefs of other people had no impact at all on Mr. Dear's beliefs and actions?
No, I am saying that the anti abortion beliefs of others are not the sole reason he did the shooting and that his mental health issues seemed to be why he murdered those people. Most people with anti abortion stances do not murder people. There needs to be a combination of things going on in his life for him to do this. Just like Islamic Terrorists, its not just their belief in Allah and Mohammed's teachings that drive them to murder people.

Here are some actual bible quotes about life that give value to the unborn.

For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; marvelous are Your works and that my soul knows well. My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed, and in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them. (Psalm 139)
Clearly this passage is metaphorical (because objectively, people's "frames" are not made "in the lowest parts of the earth"), and so cannot have bearing on the abortion debate.
I disagree but I see your point. Why take verse 15 as metaphorical?

For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb. (ESV)

If not metaphorical, the fact that the author claims that his future was known to God before he existed as a person demands the conclusion that every abortion that occurs is predestined to occur, and nothing can change that. Arguing against abortion is to therefore argue against God's Divine Will.
I agree that god is ultimately responsible for not stopping abortions. But this has nothing to do with abortions that are performed by people.

When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit…[saying] ‘As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy' (Luke 2:6-7)
Even if we grant that a "baby" was "jumping" in "joy," didn't you just say that we shouldn't generalize from a single extraordinary case?
The baby is in a womb which we see all the time and they do move around in there. The point of this verse in the context of abortion is that god considers the unborn baby a person before it was born.

Of course, the fact that God builds people deaf, blind, and mute is monstrous. For that one thing, God deserves to be reviled, not worshiped.
Why do you believe having a disability from birth is a bad thing? What do you base that on?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25887 Posts

Posted - 07/14/2017 :  16:49:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Christian Hedonist

I disagree but I see your point. Why take verse 15 as metaphorical?

For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb. (ESV)
So God literally knits people together? Developmental biologists would obviously disagree.

I agree that god is ultimately responsible for not stopping abortions. But this has nothing to do with abortions that are performed by people.
Yes, it does. I was led to believe that the Bible teaches that only God has the power of life and death. (Of course, the commandment against murder makes absolutely no sense in that context.)

The baby is in a womb which we see all the time and they do move around in there. The point of this verse in the context of abortion is that god considers the unborn baby a person before it was born.
How do you get that? Animals appear to jump joyously, too. Must we conclude then that animals are people?

Why do you believe having a disability from birth is a bad thing? What do you base that on?
I base that upon all the evil I have witnessed being heaped upon people with disabilities, whether from birth or not. God knows what deaf, mute and blind people experience. To force children to go through that is sick.

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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend

99 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2017 :  21:00:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Christian Hedonist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

So God literally knits people together? Developmental biologists would obviously disagree.
Are we not formed in the womb?

Yes, it does. I was led to believe that the Bible teaches that only God has the power of life and death. (Of course, the commandment against murder makes absolutely no sense in that context.)
God can create or kill people as he wants. That does not say that people can't kill people. What bible passage can you quote for your belief that only god kills people.

How do you get that? Animals appear to jump joyously, too. Must we conclude then that animals are people?
It is not the jumping in that verse I am referring to but the claim that it is a baby.

I base that upon all the evil I have witnessed being heaped upon people with disabilities, whether from birth or not. God knows what deaf, mute and blind people experience. To force children to go through that is sick.
How do you define evil and why? Why do you think forcing a disability on someone else is evil?
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Dave W.
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USA
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Posted - 07/18/2017 :  20:38:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Christian Hedonist

Originally posted by Dave W.

So God literally knits people together? Developmental biologists would obviously disagree.
Are we not formed in the womb?
We are not knitted in the womb. The process through which sperm and egg merge and development ensues cannot be literally described as "knitting".

God can create or kill people as he wants. That does not say that people can't kill people. What bible passage can you quote for your belief that only god kills people.
No, I was led to believe that God is the only one who "has the power of life and death," in that nobody lives (or dies) unless God decides it's okay. God has the ultimate veto power over human activities. To claim one can override God's will by killing someone God didn't want dead is to claim to be more powerful than God. Therefore, every abortion that occurs must be because God allows it.

But that's just a logical extrapolation of God's omnipotence. I forgot which chapter and verse it is that makes it explicit.

How do you get that? Animals appear to jump joyously, too. Must we conclude then that animals are people?
It is not the jumping in that verse I am referring to but the claim that it is a baby.
That claim is simply a claim. If all babies are people, then God murders people on a regular basis (through miscarriages, SIDS, etc).

How do you define evil and why? Why do you think forcing a disability on someone else is evil?
We probably define evil much the same way, from a practical viewpoint. I just don't need "divine wisdom" to give me the answer, I can work it out for myself.

I already gave you my reasons for why I thinking disabling people on purpose before birth is evil. If you had the magic power, could you declare that some as-yet-unborn child should be blind their whole life? If you don't think it's evil, you shouldn't have any moral qualms about doing so. Even if you think it's morally neutral, your declaration that a child should be born without eardrums shouldn't bother you any more than does, say, getting a glass of water.

Please don't tell me that you think you can justify a moral goodness behind God's disabling kids.

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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend

99 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2017 :  09:57:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Christian Hedonist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

We are not knitted in the womb. The process through which sperm and egg merge and development ensues cannot be literally described as "knitting".
I never said we were actually knitted but we are actually formed right? One of the definitions of "form" is to gradually appear or develop. Isn't this what happens? Most literalists like myself are never saying all things in the bible are literal. We read history as history, poetry as poetry, metaphorical as metaphorical etc. The term knitting makes most sense as a metaphor and the word formed makes most sense as literal.

No, I was led to believe that God is the only one who "has the power of life and death," in that nobody lives (or dies) unless God decides it's okay. God has the ultimate veto power over human activities. To claim one can override God's will by killing someone God didn't want dead is to claim to be more powerful than God. Therefore, every abortion that occurs must be because God allows it.
I agree that god can stop abortions if he chooses. So ultimately he is responsible for them, same with stealing, lying etc. For some reason god allows humans to do these things. Now, I believe in free will except where it comes to salvation. It is obvious god allows us to make our own choice to sin or to do good.

If all babies are people, then God murders people on a regular basis (through miscarriages, SIDS, etc).
I would say he doesn't cause it but allows it to happen. He could stop it.

We probably define evil much the same way, from a practical viewpoint. I just don't need "divine wisdom" to give me the answer, I can work it out for myself.
That's fine, but then why do you think it is ok to judge others according to your opinion? I assume you think murders should go to jail? What gives you the right to be part of a system that puts murders in jail simply because you think that should be done?

I already gave you my reasons for why I thinking disabling people on purpose before birth is evil. If you had the magic power, could you declare that some as-yet-unborn child should be blind their whole life? If you don't think it's evil, you shouldn't have any moral qualms about doing so. Even if you think it's morally neutral, your declaration that a child should be born without eardrums shouldn't bother you any more than does, say, getting a glass of water.
If I had the ability to heal a sick child I would do so. My wife has achalasia and a month ago she had surgery to remove her esophagus. If I had the ability to heal her I would have done almost anything so she would not have to go through the major surgery. We have struggled with this our entire marriage. Why doesn't god heal her? There are many apologists that have explanations that fall flat which I am sure you have heard but in the end it is a personal struggle that I don't have a pat answer for.

Please don't tell me that you think you can justify a moral goodness behind God's disabling kids.
Why do you think your idea of moral goodness can be used to judge others?
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Dave W.
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USA
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Posted - 07/25/2017 :  09:30:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Christian Hedonist

I never said we were actually knitted but we are actually formed right?
Ah, we were arguing different clauses in the one sentence.
The term knitting makes most sense as a metaphor and the word formed makes most sense as literal.
But that means that God did not form my "outward parts" (my skin)?

I agree that god can stop abortions if he chooses. So ultimately he is responsible for them, same with stealing, lying etc. For some reason god allows humans to do these things. Now, I believe in free will except where it comes to salvation. It is obvious god allows us to make our own choice to sin or to do good.
I'm confused. Why "except where it comes to salvation?" That's the only part of the free will doctrine that makes any sense. We're not robots, directed by God's tiniest whims, after all.

If all babies are people, then God murders people on a regular basis (through miscarriages, SIDS, etc).
I would say he doesn't cause it but allows it to happen. He could stop it.
Then he condones murder.

That's fine, but then why do you think it is ok to judge others according to your opinion? I assume you think murders should go to jail? What gives you the right to be part of a system that puts murders in jail simply because you think that should be done?
Because it's not "simply" what I think. We have centuries of ethical arguments to learn from, and debate (as a society) what works and what doesn't. The ethic of reciprocity predates Christ by 1,500 years or so.

What gives you the right to put murderers in jail simply because a book you believe in says murder is wrong?

I already gave you my reasons for why I thinking disabling people on purpose before birth is evil. If you had the magic power, could you declare that some as-yet-unborn child should be blind their whole life? If you don't think it's evil, you shouldn't have any moral qualms about doing so. Even if you think it's morally neutral, your declaration that a child should be born without eardrums shouldn't bother you any more than does, say, getting a glass of water.
If I had the ability to heal a sick child I would do so.
But that's not the question I asked. If you had the ability to cause birth defects, would you?

My wife has achalasia and a month ago she had surgery to remove her esophagus. If I had the ability to heal her I would have done almost anything so she would not have to go through the major surgery. We have struggled with this our entire marriage. Why doesn't god heal her? There are many apologists that have explanations that fall flat which I am sure you have heard but in the end it is a personal struggle that I don't have a pat answer for.
Sorry to hear that. I can't imagine.

Please don't tell me that you think you can justify a moral goodness behind God's disabling kids.
Why do you think your idea of moral goodness can be used to judge others?
Don't you? You choose to continue being a Christian, after all.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Christian Hedonist
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Posted - 08/07/2017 :  13:36:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Christian Hedonist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.


I'm confused. Why "except where it comes to salvation?" That's the only part of the free will doctrine that makes any sense. We're not robots, directed by God's tiniest whims, after all.
We are not but it is clear that salvation is gods work only. We do not choose to be saved. We are described as dead in our sins. Dead people cannot decide to do anything. Eph 1:4, 2 Thess 2:13, 2 Tim 1:9 etc. Election is from god not our choosing.

Then he condones murder.
I disagree. When we rip a baby out of a womb I believe it is killing the baby. Because I don’t try to stop it am I a murderer?

Because it's not "simply" what I think. We have centuries of ethical arguments to learn from, and debate (as a society) what works and what doesn't. The ethic of reciprocity predates Christ by 1,500 years or so.
But you agree with this thought. You have decided this thinking is correct and would force others to act as you think is right by society. You are ok with jailing people because you disagree with what they do based on what? Just your thoughts. Why is murder wrong?

But that's not the question I asked. If you had the ability to cause birth defects, would you?
No.

Sorry to hear that. I can't imagine.
Thanks. My point of that is to say I don’t have all the answers to unbelievers questions and neither do other Christians.
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Dave W.
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Posted - 08/07/2017 :  18:02:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Christian Hedonist

We are not but it is clear that salvation is gods work only. We do not choose to be saved. We are described as dead in our sins. Dead people cannot decide to do anything. Eph 1:4, 2 Thess 2:13, 2 Tim 1:9 etc. Election is from god not our choosing.
This is fascinating. With your ideas of sin, salvation, and God knowing people before they are conceived, why not do whatever you feel like doing, since nothing you can do can change God's predetermined fate for you? Why worry about other people's sins at all? A person who knows he's sinned cannot change his path.

Then he condones murder.
I disagree. When we rip a baby out of a womb I believe it is killing the baby. Because I don’t try to stop it am I a murderer?
"Condone" means "accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue." If you think abortion is morally wrong (and is murder), then allowing abortions to occur means that you condone murder. It doesn't make you a murderer.

Your theory of sin is what makes you a murderer.

Because it's not "simply" what I think. We have centuries of ethical arguments to learn from, and debate (as a society) what works and what doesn't. The ethic of reciprocity predates Christ by 1,500 years or so.
But you agree with this thought. You have decided this thinking is correct and would force others to act as you think is right by society. You are ok with jailing people because you disagree with what they do based on what? Just your thoughts. Why is murder wrong?
Why not ask yourself? On what basis do you believe the Bible teaches correct morality? You have decided that biblical teachings are correct. What if the Bible is full of lies?

But that's not the question I asked. If you had the ability to cause birth defects, would you?
No.
So it's okay for God to do it, but not you?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Christian Hedonist
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Posted - 08/10/2017 :  10:27:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Christian Hedonist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.


This is fascinating. With your ideas of sin, salvation, and God knowing people before they are conceived, why not do whatever you feel like doing, since nothing you can do can change God's predetermined fate for you? Why worry about other people's sins at all? A person who knows he's sinned cannot change his path.
Sinning does not disqualify you from salvation. Evangelism is commanded by god, he uses evangelism to save people. Romans 10:16-19.

[ Condone" means "accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue." If you think abortion is morally wrong (and is murder), then allowing abortions to occur means that you condone murder. It doesn't make you a murderer.


Condone: to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless.
I don’t think god sees miscarriages as sin. It is a consequence of sin. He also doesn’t think it is acceptable, he allows it to happen. There is a difference between a person killing the baby in the womb and natural miscarriages. It seems you don’t want to see a difference.

]Why not ask yourself? On what basis do you believe the Bible teaches correct morality? You have decided that biblical teachings are correct. What if the Bible is full of lies?
You are dodging the question.

But that's not the question I asked. If you had the ability to cause birth defects, would you?
No.
So it's okay for God to do it, but not you?
Yes, if he wants to.
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Dave W.
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Posted - 08/10/2017 :  16:49:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Christian Hedonist

Sinning does not disqualify you from salvation.
Again: then why not rape, kill, pillage and burn your way through life?

I don’t think god sees miscarriages as sin. It is a consequence of sin.
Way to blame the victim. Wow.

He also doesn’t think it is acceptable, he allows it to happen.
Yes, he condones it. He has the power to stop it, and he thinks it's wrong, but he allows it to happen anyway.

There is a difference between a person killing the baby in the womb and natural miscarriages. It seems you don’t want to see a difference.
God created nature and the rules nature plays by. If he didn't want miscarriages to happen, they would not. He created miscarriages, and the "natural" events which lead to them. Even if "sin" is the cause, he created sin, and he created people with the ability to sin, and he didn't think to put a glass dome over the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Your God is thus directly responsible for each and every miscarriage that happens for any reason, and is no less culpable for the result than a human doctor who performs an abortion.

It seems to me that you want to see a difference where there can be none.

Why not ask yourself? On what basis do you believe the Bible teaches correct morality? You have decided that biblical teachings are correct. What if the Bible is full of lies?
You are dodging the question.
No, you're trying to imply that I have no basis for my morality except for what I think is right, while you do. My point is that you have also chosen your morality based on nothing more than what you think is right, exactly as I have. You've picked one book. I've picked a synthesis knowledge gleaned from lots of books.

But that's not the question I asked. If you had the ability to cause birth defects, would you?
No.
So it's okay for God to do it, but not you?
Yes, if he wants to.
And you don't see a problem with this? Why, if you had the power, wouldn't you create millions of deaf kids, and blind kids, and kids with harelips, and kids with their spines outside their skin, etc.. If you had God's power, why would you not use it? God does it for some reason, why wouldn't you?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend

99 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2017 :  10:22:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Christian Hedonist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Christian Hedonist

Sinning does not disqualify you from salvation.
Again: then why not rape, kill, pillage and burn your way through life?
Well repentance is required which god gives you. My point was that any sin can be forgiven minus one.

I don’t think god sees miscarriages as sin. It is a consequence of sin.
Way to blame the victim. Wow.
I am not doing that. What I meant by my statement is that sickness etc. entered the world when Adam sinned. Miscarriages happen because creation has fallen and is not like it is supposed to be. God will recreate the world when he comes back.

He also doesn’t think it is acceptable, he allows it to happen.
Yes, he condones it. He has the power to stop it, and he thinks it's wrong, but he allows it to happen anyway.
I agree with this.

There is a difference between a person killing the baby in the womb and natural miscarriages. It seems you don’t want to see a difference.
God created nature and the rules nature plays by. If he didn't want miscarriages to happen, they would not. He created miscarriages, and the "natural" events which lead to them. Even if "sin" is the cause, he created sin, and he created people with the ability to sin, and he didn't think to put a glass dome over the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Your God is thus directly responsible for each and every miscarriage that happens for any reason, and is no less culpable for the result than a human doctor who performs an abortion.
I agree that god is responsible for the miscarriages in that he doesn't stop them from happening.

No, you're trying to imply that I have no basis for my morality except for what I think is right, while you do. My point is that you have also chosen your morality based on nothing more than what you think is right, exactly as I have. You've picked one book. I've picked a synthesis knowledge gleaned from lots of books.
Then how can you condemn my views if there really is not right or wrong just what we each individually think?

And you don't see a problem with this? Why, if you had the power, wouldn't you create millions of deaf kids, and blind kids, and kids with harelips, and kids with their spines outside their skin, etc.. If you had God's power, why would you not use it? God does it for some reason, why wouldn't you?
I wouldn't unless I agreed with gods reason which I don't know.
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