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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 10/20/2003 : 22:01:45
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I have heard many peope talking on here about the genius and great man that Charles Darwin was. Before you go off and consider him your hero, which I know at least one person on here has already said is the case. I thought there are some things you would probably like to know.
Here is an exerpt letter written by Darwin in 1881: "The more civalized Caucasian Races have beaten the turkish hollow in the struggle for existence. Looking at the world at no very distant date, what an endless number of lower races will have to be eliminated by the higher civalized races throughout the world".
Here is Darwins right hand man Thomas Huxley: "No rational man cognizent of all the facts, believes that the average Negro is the equal, still less the superior, of the white man.
Also, Arthur Kieth, a militant anti-christian physical anthropologist, who was close to Adolph Hitler said this: "The German Fuher, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consistently sought to make the practices of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.
You might think I'm reading into this to far but that tells me that Hitler was driven to kill millions of jews BECAUSE of evolution.
None of this really proves anyything against evolution. It's just some food for thought.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 10/20/2003 : 22:36:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
You might think I'm reading into this to far but that tells me that Hitler was driven to kill millions of jews BECAUSE of evolution.
None of this really proves anyything against evolution. It's just some food for thought.
Hitler didn't just kill Jews.
And what's wrong with being a racist?.....as long as you don't kill anyone, I suppose. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 00:21:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Also, Arthur Kieth, a militant anti-christian physical anthropologist, who was close to Adolph Hitler said this: "The German Fuher, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consistently sought to make the practices of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.
You might think I'm reading into this to far but that tells me that Hitler was driven to kill millions of jews BECAUSE of evolution.
Good grief, now evolution is the cause of the holocaust.....what an insane idea
About Charles Darwin, dont forget he was alive 150 years ago, things were a lot different then.
Updated for spelling |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
| Edited by - gezzam on 10/21/2003 05:44:45 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 00:33:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
You might think I'm reading into this to far but that tells me that Hitler was driven to kill millions of jews BECAUSE of evolution.
Well lets go to the source and see what the elected Austrian immigrant wrote:
"Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator.
By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
quote:
None of this really proves anyything against evolution.
Well at least you got something right.
Thank you for playing.
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 05:51:41 [Permalink]
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Hitler was also a vegetarian, I think. Maybe it was his vegetarianism that drove him to kill millions of Jews. 
Hitler used Social Darwinism, not evolution per se, to justify his beliefs. My recollection of Social Darwinism from college is that it's a widely discredited perversion of biological evolutionary theory.
Interestingly, evidence exists that Hitler was influenced by the American Eugeneics movement (which was funded, in part, by the Rockefeller Foundation, among others). If you want further evidence on how insidiously evil racism can be, read about the forced sterilizations--yep, here in America--prompted by Eugenic thinking.
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 13:04:48 [Permalink]
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Thomas Jefferson repeatedly raped one of his slaves that was the same age as his daughter. When the slave became pregenant and had a child, Jefferson had the child raised as a slave in the slave quarters.
None of this proves anything against the United States. It's just some food for thought.
By the way, the only thing that Jefferson did wrong biblically, was that he did not raise the child as his own. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 17:42:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Thomas Jefferson repeatedly raped one of his slaves that was the same age as his daughter. When the slave became pregenant and had a child, Jefferson had the child raised as a slave in the slave quarters.
None of this proves anything against the United States. It's just some food for thought.
By the way, the only thing that Jefferson did wrong biblically, was that he did not raise the child as his own.
This would be a good argument if I had said anything about suppoting Jefferson at all. But considering I didn't it's one of the stupidest I have ever heard on this web site. And if you say that's the only thing he did wrong, you are a twisted man. And I would also like a source to back this claim up. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 18:54:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
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quote:
Thomas Jefferson repeatedly raped one of his slaves that was the same age as his daughter. When the slave became pregenant and had a child, Jefferson had the child raised as a slave in the slave quarters.
None of this proves anything against the United States. It's just some food for thought.
By the way, the only thing that Jefferson did wrong biblically, was that he did not raise the child as his own.
This would be a good argument if I had said anything about suppoting Jefferson at all. But considering I didn't it's one of the stupidest I have ever heard on this web site. And if you say that's the only thing he did wrong, you are a twisted man. And I would also like a source to back this claim up.
You might think I'm reading into this to far but that tells me that Hitler was driven to kill millions of jews BECAUSE of evolution.
No, this comment above is one of the stupidest things I have seen on this web site
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 19:11:11 [Permalink]
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OK. You want people to back things up? How's about you backing up your idea that Hitler did what he did to the Jews because of evolution? Find something in Hitlers' writings and something in the writings of Darwin, Nietsche, Huxley et al that shows that they believed that the jews were inferior due to evolution.
About your "Sir Arthur Keith" quote. It's interesting to note that Keith never seems to have read "Mein Kampf" taken note of Hitler's speeches bashing athiesm and praising religion. It's even more interesting that EVERY time a creationist tries to link Hitler with evolution, they can only come up with stuff from this ONE MAN! If evolution lead to anti-semitism then you people should be able to find dozens if not more scientists from around that time saying that kind of thing. Why is it only Sir Arthur Keith? If it's only one guy, and one guy who doesn't seem to have done his homework on Hitler's past at that, why should we take the word of ONE PERSON as being indicative of an entire way of thinking?
Would you be willing to judge xianity based on the opinion of ONE SCHOLAR who shot it down?
On to other stuff, as to your claim that "Darwin was a racist", you should maybe check out this thread:
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2002 |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 19:50:23 [Permalink]
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Darwin was a child of his times, as are we all. He was no more raciest than anyone else of the day.
Here are some quotes from the writings and speeches of Adolf Hiter:
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work. -Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936
There is a road to freedom. Its milestones are Obedience, Endeavor, Honesty, Order, Cleanliness, Sobriety, Truthfulness, Sacrifice, and love of the Fatherland. -Message, signed Hitler, painted on walls of concentration camps; Life, August 21, 1939
Woman's world is her husband, her family, her children and her home. We do not find it right when she presses into the world of men. -Adolph Hitler, quoted in Lucy Komisar, The New Feminism
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . we need believing people. -Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933
I have followed (the Church) in giving our party program the character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its amendment, every logical criticism, or attack on it, has been rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be built up on a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory or irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it. -Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, _The Voice of Destruction_, pp. 239-40
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed. -Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922, published in My New Order, quoted in Freethought Today April 1990
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. -Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46]
What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator. -Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 125
This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief. -Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.152
And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God. -Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.174
Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another... while the enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve. -Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.309
I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so -Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941
Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook. -Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 171
I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 1
I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 2
...the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party... was to assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3
As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3
Political parties has nothing to do with religious problems, as long as these are not alien to the nation, undermining the morals and ethics of the race; just as religion cannot be amalgamated with the scheming of political parties. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1,
Chapter 3
For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of his people must always remain inviolable; or else has no right to be in politics, but should become a reformer, if he has what it takes! -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3
In nearly all the matters in which the Pan-German movement was wanting, the attitude of the Christian Social Party was correct and well-planned. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol.
1, Chapter 3
It (Christian Social Party) recognized the value of large-scale propaganda and was a virtuoso in influencing the psychological instincts of the broad masses of its adherents. -
Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3
The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement) was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3
If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked among the great minds of our people. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3, about the leader of the Christian Social movement
Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 5
I had so often sung 'Deutschland u:ber Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, V |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 20:13:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
'Nuff said.
Filthy?....that was the proverbial dump truck! Good post. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 22:00:58 [Permalink]
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Thanks Filthy- your library must be a lot better organized than my book collection, since many of the quotes from Hitler's speeches are familiar, but I have a lot of trouble remembering just where I originally read them.
I think it's also worthwhile to take note of a couple of things: first, that trying to discredit a theory by defaming its originator is one of the classical logical fallacies,
Second, that trying to do it by attacking Darwin is at least partially off-target. Darwin was far from the first observer to consider the possibility of the evolutionary development of different species; the discovery of plant, animal and even human fossils had already provided evidence to suggest that the world's current set of species is not identical to that of the distant past. Where Darwin was genuinely seminal was in proposing a set of mechanisms- mutation and natural selection- by which these changes could take place, and which could be tested against what the fossil record reveals.
As with any other scientific theory, the idea has had to stand or fall on the basis of evidence, not on the personal attributes of its proposer, and, although fine points are still being worked out and argued, the broad concepts of mutation and selection have stood for nearly a century and a half under what's now a massive body of information.
There isn't any hero-worship involved at all in this process, and I can't help but postulate a bit of projection in the assumption of how people who have some belief in the power of rational investigation to produce valid information about the natural world would respond to the fact that a historically important figure wasn't completely in line with the political thinking of a century and a half after his time.
It's not quite the same thing as if we were, say, a congregation whose preacher had just been caught in a motel room with a hooker.  |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2003 : 04:30:40 [Permalink]
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I don't recall where I got those quotes from. I down-loaded them into a file and they've sat there for a long time. I see that I'm going to have to format the last half to make for easier reading.
Here's a good site on Hitler's life, as well as some other, historical figures:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/index.htm
Hitler was a fascinating madman. In WW-1, he served with some distinction. Wounded twice, he earned the Iron Cross First Class, an award seldom given to an enlisted man. He was to wear that medal and none other for the rest of his life. The officer who reccommended him for it was Jewish -- go figure.
Hitler and Darwin have at least two things in common: They had profound effect on the thinking of the world, and they're both dead. Thus, we can, pretty much say anything we want about them, can we not? But, their writings and the writings of their contemporaries survive to give a more accurate picture of them than the misimformed blather that crops up now and then, from those who refuse to study history. Or worse, from those who have studied it, didn't like it as it didn't fit their notions, and try to do a new version of it.
You can rewrite history, but you can't change it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2003 : 06:17:33 [Permalink]
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Creation,
I am not going to do your research for you. Go to the library, or go to a search site site on the web and lookup "Jefferson and slaves". It is very simple.
If it turns out that Darwin was a raving lunatic, it would have ZERO impact on the theory of evolution. Evolution is based on evidence and facts found in the physical world, not on the teachings of a man from the past. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2003 : 06:22:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
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quote:
Thomas Jefferson repeatedly raped one of his slaves that was the same age as his daughter. When the slave became pregenant and had a child, Jefferson had the child raised as a slave in the slave quarters.
None of this proves anything against the United States. It's just some food for thought.
By the way, the only thing that Jefferson did wrong biblically, was that he did not raise the child as his own.
This would be a good argument if I had said anything about suppoting Jefferson at all. But considering I didn't it's one of the stupidest I have ever heard on this web site. And if you say that's the only thing he did wrong, you are a twisted man. And I would also like a source to back this claim up.
Allow me.
The contention is that the only thing Jefferson did wrong by siring a child by a slave Biblically is that he did not raise that child like his own. The arguement shows the weakness of your own by proposing the same moral code you have on Darwin and applied it to the product of his intellectual work of the United States like you do Darwin's evolution.
Genesis 16-17 details the story of a man who has sex with one of his slaves. That slave bears a child and that child is raised as the man's own son. Likewise, with Genesis 30.
The prejudices of a person cannot be used to determine the truth value of their intellectual works unless it directly bears on the subject they are researching. Evolution and the formation of the United States are not modified by the common racist attitudes of the time.
Insults do not support your position. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 10/22/2003 06:30:46 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2003 : 09:20:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
None of this really proves anyything against evolution. It's just some food for thought.
Creation88, could you please fill in your bio, or otherwise tell us a little where you come from?
It's hard to address you properly when we don't know who you are.
I don't want you to give up name, address, and social security number or some such things.
But it would be helpful to know what congregation or church you are attending when we are about to discuss theology.
Likewise, it would be useful to know what kind of education you have (and school) if we are going to discuss physics.
The point of me asking this is that we need to speak the same language if anything fruitful is going to come out of our discussions.
It would be for the benefit of all of us, but especially for you.
(edited for spelling) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/25/2003 02:48:10 |
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