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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
 Posted - 07/14/2004 : 01:29:02
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For consideration
What have we all been taught by our present educational system?
Education is for children. Education is boring. There is nothing creative about education. Studying is an activity that young people should do. Education is a teacher working valiantly to persuade a passive young person to listen and pay attention.
Such an educational system does have its important useful function. It is an efficient means to train workers. It quickly teaches its pupils the facts, paradigms and algorithms necessary to get a job and to perform adequately on that job. It does adequately prepare the engineers, accountants, lawyers, nurses, doctors and all those professional people needed by a high tech society.
We are all aware of this system because we are all products of this system. We all consider this system, as we consider most things, as being the work of nature--much like gravity is a force of nature.
As long as we remain aware but not conscious of a reality we are unprepared to move beyond that reality. I am asking you to invest some of your time and energy to step out of the reality you are accustomed to and to gain a position were it is possible to become truly conscious of the present situation. This is something the present educational system has never taught us to do. This is only one of many weaknesses in the system, which we can never truly apprehend until we are willing to invest time and intellectual energy to develop our consciousness of that which we accept as being ‘what comes naturally'.
I am asking you to invest your time and energy in considering a new added mode of education. I am asking you to intellectually make contact with the concept of adults engaged in self-learning during the second half of their life. I am suggesting, for your consideration, the prospect of adults following their own individual curiosity to answer questions that an active critical thinking adult might contemplate.
I am suggesting that if we were to have a significant number of adults engaged in self-learning that we very well might significantly change the direction of our society.
What do you have to lose? You can invest a little time and intellectual energy toward the possibility that there may be some value in such an endeavor. What does it cost you to engage your intellect for a few hours a week for a sufficient number of weeks to seriously examine such an idea? Unfortunately there is no money to be made by this activity and thus there is little self-serving motivation for the investment I seek.
I have been actively engaged in this self-learning experience and I am convinced that it is valuable to the individual and to society in general. I am convinced that if you were to spend some time and intellectual energy in consideration of this matter you would agree that it is worth further study.
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2004 : 05:30:59 [Permalink]
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Coberst said:
quote:
As long as we remain aware but not conscious of a reality we are unprepared to move beyond that reality. I am asking you to invest some of your time and energy to step out of the reality you are accustomed to and to gain a position were it is possible to become truly conscious of the present situation. This is something the present educational system has never taught us to do.
This is sort of nice spiritual golbity-gook, but it doesn't really mean much.
Invest time to step out of reality? I believe that is called insanity. Are you saying we should hire teachers that teach insanity?
What do you mean 'truly concious of reality'. Are you saying that there is ultimate truth that is percievable if it is not clouded by our ego?
If you have reached this nirvana where the truth is self evident, I would like to ask you a couple of questions:
1. Which is the right party - Democrate or Republican
2. Who is the best painter
3. Does Rap 'music' really suck or is just me?
Thanks in advance.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2004 : 06:00:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
<snip>
3. Does Rap 'music' really suck or is just me?<snip>
It's just you. Over the past decade I've gone from despising rap to really enjoying quite a lot of it. I can't get past some of the subject matter, though I find it curious how one can become so vile. But there is a great deal of it that's very good. |
-Chaloobi
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2004 : 09:42:19 [Permalink]
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Furshur
I think that there are four levels of comprehension; awareness, consciousness, knowledge and understanding.
I am confident that we are all aware of many things but we are conscious of many less. To be conscious of a matter is to invest an intellectual focus on the matter.
For example; when my daughter introduces me to her new boy friend I become aware of this boy. Later when she advises me that they plan to marry I become conscious of this man. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2004 : 10:27:35 [Permalink]
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| Sorry, coberst, I'm not following. Are you asking us to marry you? I'm missing the point entirely. I think most of us here are adults and are learning. What do you want us to learn? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2004 : 11:03:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
3. Does Rap 'music' really suck or is just me?
As much as I would say "oh yeah, it suck alright" I have to maintain my actual opinion when it come to art... that no piece of art is objectively "good" or "bad". |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2004 : 14:56:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
1. Which is the right party - Democrate or Republican
2. Who is the best painter
3. Does Rap 'music' really suck or is just me?
1. Niether one, they both suck.
2. Vincent van Goh
3. It's not just you, rap sucks. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2004 : 22:54:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
I would have to disagree:
http://ncbuy.com/news/2004-07-13/1010072.html
That is definitely bad art.
Seriously, that's the most ridiculous thing I've seen, or at least it's very high on the list. What makes people even consider the possibility to do something like that? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2004 : 02:07:35 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, I am not trying to do philosophy I am trying to invigorate thought in areas usually untouched by thought. In this particular essay I am introducing a concept to people who very well may never have thought of such a thing. I am suggesting that citizens, after they have passed mid-life, might take up the hobby of self-learning.
When I mention such things people recognize commonly used words and automatically assume that they understand the matter. I am not talking about the standard situation in which we buy a book now and then. Generally it is something on the best seller list or some current event. Political books and books on terriorism are popular today.
When I speak of self-learning I am speaking of an individual who follows his/her curiosity and develops questions and seeks answers about serious matters. I am talking about a significant effort by a significant number of people to upgrade the general intellectual level of the community through this hobby. I am talking about knowing for the sake of knowing. We all learn things for the purpose of some end. In such a case we seek knowledge as a means to that end. I am talking about seeking knowledge as an end itself.
I have been engaged in such an effort for twenty years and have found it to be benificial both to myself and my community.
I would like people to become aware of intellectual exercise somewhat like they might become aware of physical exercise. Those individuals who have a standard exercise routine will probably tell you that it has become a necessary and important part of their life. That has been my experience.
Suppose we all lived on an island and we were all color blind. Suppose you accidently stumbled upon a technique that allowed you to perceive color. What would follow such a happening. Give it some thought.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2004 : 02:55:12 [Permalink]
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1. Which is the right party - Democrate or Republican -- At the moment, the Dems. Makes me glad I'm Independant.
2. Who is the best painter -- My younger daughter.
3. Does Rap 'music' really suck or is just me? -- Odd that you should ask that. As in all things, Rap seems to be evolving in interesting directions. It still sucks, especally when played full blast.
"When I look back on all the crap I learned in high school,
It's a wonder I can think at all....." -- Simon and Garfunkle
All learning is self education, even the organized kind. A good student will always be learning, whether in class, reading for recreation, or just messing around on line. A good teacher teaches, not so much his subject, but the intellectual skills to learn his subject.
Learning never ends.
Of course there are those who lack the curosity to observe beyond whatever dogma they've been indoctrinated with. But even these continue to learn, like it or not.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2004 : 10:48:08 [Permalink]
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coberst wrote:quote:
In this particular essay I am introducing a concept to people who very well may never have thought of such a thing.
Not at all. Your only evidence of the kind of people your audience here consists of is the feedback you receive. Your target audience, as you've said, is people over 40 who are not now critical thinkers. So far as you know, your audience does not read these forums. That illustrates your lack of critical thought on these essays.
quote:
I am suggesting that citizens, after they have passed mid-life, might take up the hobby of self-learning.
What evidence do you have that they do not?quote:
I am not talking about the standard situation in which we buy a book now and then. Generally it is something on the best seller list or some current event. Political books and books on terriorism are popular today.
When I speak of self-learning I am speaking of an individual who follows his/her curiosity and develops questions and seeks answers about serious matters.
Ah, I see: self-learning about politics or terrorism is not possible. At least, politics and terrorism are not "serious matters" which should be self-taught after mid-life. coberst, even if the preceding was not your intention, I gotta say that the more I read of your posts, the less I think of you as a critical thinker, and the more I think of you as a pompous wanna-be philosopher.
I'm still waiting for your evidence that people here call themselves experts in critical thinking "all the time." Going by your words, every single post should say as much. Less literally, one might think "all the time" might mean a post per day. Where are the quotes from other users here which so what you have said they say? They should be easy to find.
Critical thinkers, in my opinion, don't vomit up assertions of fact so broad as to cover all the people of these forums without making damn sure that they've got said facts straight. You are doing damage to the image of critical thinkers everywhere with such crap, contrary your stated goals. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2004 : 13:25:25 [Permalink]
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| David you have a marvelous way with words. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2004 : 18:53:44 [Permalink]
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coberst wrote:quote:
David you have a marvelous way with words.
Thank you. Now where are the quotes upon which your critically thought-out conclusion from the other thread rests?
Edited to add: I wonder if you spent more than 60 seconds reading, considering or replying to my post, decided it was a "loser," and chose to write a "quick witted response." I'm beginning to get the feeling that you haven't escaped the faults you appear to dislike in the populations of "most forums." (See this thread.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 06:15:40 [Permalink]
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Coberst
quote:
I am asking you to invest some of your time and energy to step out of the reality you are accustomed to and to gain a position were it is possible to become truly conscious of the present situation.
'Truly conscious of what 'present situation'?
quote:
Gorgo, I am not trying to do philosophy I am trying to invigorate thought in areas usually untouched by thought.
What areas usually untouched by thought?
quote:
When I speak of self-learning I am speaking of an individual who follows his/her curiosity and develops questions and seeks answers about serious matters.
What serious matters?
Stop beating around the freaking bush. I am clearly one of these lost people who doesn't know what is important to ponder. Stop being so nebulous and give me some guidance.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 08:09:14 [Permalink]
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Our educational system has been very effective in producing well-trained workers and consumers. It has been deficient in developing individuals who understand the fundamentals of the science of reason. I consider this deficiency to be a serious matter.
Our (I am speaking of the United States but I am under the impression that this is the same in many other countries) educational system has begun an effort to introduce in our schools and colleges a program labeled Critical Thinking that is designed to introduce young people to the science of reason.
I am trying to introduce adults to this new concept and I am also trying to convince them that self-learning is a valuable hobby they should consider.
The present situation I speak of is the situation regarding education.
The area usually untouched by thought by most citizens is this area of the science of reason. To be specific I am speaking of the fundamentals of epistemology and logic and matters of intellectual character.
When I mention serious matters I am asking the individual to follow their curiosity and questions they develop in their self-learning experience. I would expect the learning would include a great deal of history and perhaps various sciences. My experience has been that I have developed questions of interest faster than I could find answers. The important consideration is that the individual decides as they learn what is important. This is an experience that develops the individual in a way that makes that person less of a standard product and more of a self created person.
This is a matter that sounds unfamiliar because no doubt few people entertain such thoughts. If a person will invest a little intellectual energy in this matter I think they will be rewarded.
I have made several posts in this forum discussing various aspects of this subject. If you are interested you can find further detail there. I will be glade to clarify any questions. The big problem for most people I susprct is that I am introducing some new ideas and that always requires some thoughtful effort on the part of the reader.
For information regarding Critical Thinking I suggest a google of critical thinking. You will find more than 5 million sites filled with detailed info.
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