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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 06/13/2005 : 07:10:31
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A headline in today's USA Todays struck me as a little odd: The debate's over: Globe is warming.
While I have no problems with the last part, I think that our President is still pretty unsure, as noted in this CNN piece:quote:
Nevertheless, despite progress on Africa, Blair returned from Washington conceding he has no chance of persuading Bush -- who questions scientists' view that manmade pollutants are responsible for increasing temperatures -- to back the Kyoto Protocol on global warming. (emph added)
It'll be interesting to see what happens from here.
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
 Posted - 06/13/2005 : 11:25:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
While I have no problems with the last part, I think that our President is still pretty unsure, as noted in this CNN piece:quote:
Nevertheless, despite progress on Africa, Blair returned from Washington conceding he has no chance of persuading Bush -- who questions scientists' view that manmade pollutants are responsible for increasing temperatures -- to back the Kyoto Protocol on global warming. (emph added)
He must've read Michael Crichton's new book. Hell, who am I kidding? Maybe somebody hit the high points for him. 
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 12:54:06 [Permalink]
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Our fearless (gag) leader knows perfectly well that global warming is a stone fact, and has from the git-go. But to admit such and attempt to do something about it would cost him his corporate and religio-whack sponsers. It would be admitting that science has value, and we can't have that...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 17:34:53 [Permalink]
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Well, regardless of what President Bush says, I will go with the legitimate scientists when it comes to anything scientific.
ljbrs |
"Innumerable suns exist; innumerable earths revolve about these suns in a manner similar to the way the seven planets revolve around our sun. Living beings inhabit these worlds."
Giordano Bruno
(Burned at the stake by the Roman Catholic Church Inquisition in 1600) |
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Giltwist
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 18:58:30 [Permalink]
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See, I'll agree that the earth is warming, but I'm not particularly sure it will keep going that way. Sooner or later, enough of the polar ice caps will melt and shut down the Gulf Stream, thus cooling the poles again. I'd agree that the pollutants are speeding the process up, but why wouldn't global temperature be as cyclical as everything else on Earth?
If need be, I can look up the Scientific American Frontiers show that talked about that.
G. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 20:15:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Giltwist
See, I'll agree that the earth is warming, but I'm not particularly sure it will keep going that way. Sooner or later, enough of the polar ice caps will melt and shut down the Gulf Stream, thus cooling the poles again. I'd agree that the pollutants are speeding the process up, but why wouldn't global temperature be as cyclical as everything else on Earth?
Well, it might very well be cyclical, but it does us no good if the planet becomes hostile to life in between swings. Whether the Earth becomes choked with hot gas or returns to a frozen sphere, neither is especially desirable. Speeding up the process of changing the planet from the way it is right now is bad any way you look at it, since right now is pretty much how we'd like to keep it.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/13/2005 20:17:52 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 21:10:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Sooner or later, enough of the polar ice caps will melt and shut down the Gulf Stream, thus cooling the poles again. I'd agree that the pollutants are speeding the process up, but why wouldn't global temperature be as cyclical as everything else on Earth?
The problem with global warming is that it is global. It isn't just happening to the polar ice caps, but the average temperature of the entire earth is increasing.
But you can't just say that since everything else is cyclical, that this will be. For most things this is true because if there was no cycle, there would be no life on earth. This is not true for global warming because it has been caused by humans, which started with the industrial revolution.
To put it another way, others processes must have a cycle because they have been going on for billions of years and if there wasn't a cycle, we wouldn't be here. But with global warming, it has not been going on for billions of years, only about 200. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Giltwist
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 21:13:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
To put it another way, others processes must have a cycle because they have been going on for billions of years and if there wasn't a cycle, we wouldn't be here. But with global warming, it has not been going on for billions of years, only about 200.
How do we know that? Does accurate geological (or whatever) data exist to support that claim so far back? |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2005 : 01:59:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Our fearless (gag) leader knows perfectly well that global warming is a stone fact, and has from the git-go. But to admit such and attempt to do something about it would cost him his corporate and religio-whack sponsers. It would be admitting that science has value, and we can't have that...
To hear this guy talk you have to wonder what Bush actually believes. I have to assume the 'talking points memo' says to use the words, "alarmist scientists" at every opportunity. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2005 : 03:23:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Our fearless (gag) leader knows perfectly well that global warming is a stone fact, and has from the git-go. But to admit such and attempt to do something about it would cost him his corporate and religio-whack sponsers. It would be admitting that science has value, and we can't have that...
To hear this guy talk you have to wonder what Bush actually believes. I have to assume the 'talking points memo' says to use the words, "alarmist scientists" at every opportunity.
A good read, B'gal. Thanks. We are governed by whores, are we not? But then, nothing new there....
I seem to recall doing a thread on Cooney, but don't remember which one. At last report, he has slithered off into the sunset with his hat in his hand and a sore ass, having had the ill grace to get caught. Bush and his pimps don't like get-caughts.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2005 : 06:25:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Giltwist
See, I'll agree that the earth is warming, but I'm not particularly sure it will keep going that way. Sooner or later, enough of the polar ice caps will melt and shut down the Gulf Stream, thus cooling the poles again. I'd agree that the pollutants are speeding the process up, but why wouldn't global temperature be as cyclical as everything else on Earth?
If the Gulf Stream shuts down, my country as well as Finland and Norway will end up uninhabitable. I'd prefer to see that later rather than sooner.
I also read this in the article
quote:
"FutureGen," the Energy Department's 10-year,$1 billion attempt at creating a coal-fired power plant that emits no greenhouse gases.
What's the scoop on this one? What else than carbon oxides do they expect to get when burning coal?
Switching fuels in cars has a catch-22. There are stations that are selling E85 (85% ethanol and 15% regular gas), but they are so scarce no many are willing to buy a new or convery their old car to alcohol.
Since the sales of E85-powered cars is very low, hardly any stations want to start selling E85.
The Swedish governmet is proposing a bill forcing all stations to offer "alternative" fuels, in order to break the circle and help speeding up the switch to alcohol. Ford is already offering Flexi-fuel cars, and Saab has new E85 models as well. I read somewhere that Peugeot also have some models prepared.
Converting old cars should normally not involve expensive or invasive operations: the fuel injetors will need to have 20-25% overcapacity since fuel consumption will increase, and a pressure valve needs to be added to increase the the fuel pump pressure. I've been told it can be done on most cars at $200 in material, providing pump and injectors are up to it. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2005 : 10:06:39 [Permalink]
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This article kind of sums up my thoughts on global warming.
Too warm?
quote:
With the exception of President Bush, ExxonMobil and some hired scientists, few people deny that global warming is (1) real and (2) linked to fossil-fuel emissions. But world and national events seem to be aligning to shake the president's dangerous and nonsensical denial and allow the United States at least to acknowledge the problem.
I don't necessarily agree with the 'doom and gloom' results of global warming, but to deny that it exists seems silly.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2005 : 14:52:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Switching fuels in cars has a catch-22.
Yes. Even switching to hydrogen as a fuel source for vehicles, the hydrogen has to come from someplace. (i.e. be manufactured)
The power to make it has to come from some source.
Until we get serious about real renewable energy sources, we are going to be stuck with fossil fuels and the negative impact of using them.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2005 : 18:01:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Switching fuels in cars has a catch-22.
Yes. Even switching to hydrogen as a fuel source for vehicles, the hydrogen has to come from someplace. (i.e. be manufactured)
The power to make it has to come from some source.
Until we get serious about real renewable energy sources, we are going to be stuck with fossil fuels and the negative impact of using them.
Agree. It is my understanding that most hydrogen today is made from natural gas. The electrolisis process is too slow and expensive.
Or so I have read -- it was some time back and I don't have a link.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2005 : 18:46:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude:
Yes. Even switching to hydrogen as a fuel source for vehicles, the hydrogen has to come from someplace. (i.e. be manufactured)
The power to make it has to come from some source.
Until we get serious about real renewable energy sources, we are going to be stuck with fossil fuels and the negative impact of using them.
Correct on the hydrogen. There are no known (and most likely no unknown) pure hydrogen sources akin to oil fields. Hydrogen is bound up with other stuff and it takes energy to liberate it. Hydrogen is at best a mode of energy transport, not an energy source. A hydrogen fueled vehicle, for instance, lets you ultimately power a vehicle from any fuel you can use to make electricity. To convert to the much-hyped "hydrogen economy" would require large amounts of electric power from some source. Coal and nuclear are at present the only realistic available options to supply that amount of power.
Renewables have limitations, mostly the low energy density and unreliability of renewable sources. Solar is great when integrated into building design to minimize power consumption and to provide heating, and to some extent generate power from rooftop solar panels, but generating large amounts of solar electricity requires large amounts of land (and large amounts of power are needed to supply large urban centers and industry). It also only works during daylight hours. Wind is limited to geographical areas with relatively high average wind speeds, most of which are unfortunately far from population centers, requiring new transmission lines. It also takes up a large footprint per megawatt produced. Both of these also suffer from a lack of dispatchability. Electric power must be produced as it is needed. There is no currently available large scale storage technology. You can't just order more sunshine or wind when you need more power. You take what you get.
While we should certainly continue to refine and expand our use of renewable power sources, it may not be possible to support civilization as we know it on renewables alone. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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