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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 07/29/2005 : 21:55:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm...
I wondered what forum to put this in...I refuse to put in Pseudoscience..Especially with the whole bad science exposed...Ghosts I do not feel are bad science..
I'm of the opinion that ghosts aren't bad science. For some, ghosts seems to be like gods or leprechauns or UFOs, an appeasement, a way to fill in spaces to provide comfort while searching for answers that may not yet exist. So it seems to me the ghosts themselves aren't really any science at all.quote:
Originally posted by Storm...
Sure I think that...look how long it took for us to discover something like plumbing...electricity...it took centuries... but Dave the sightings don't stop..the encounters still happen..Some strong evidence has come out..and these amateur ghost hunters have picked up on a lot of it... No body listens though... To many debunkers
Electricity existed forever, long before it was understood. For eons there were guesses about lightning, one of which was that a god named Thor (or Zeus) hurled bolts of lightning earthward from the heavens. When people began to understand the scientific principles of electricity, that did not suddenly change the facts. All that changed was the understanding. The lightning gods were created by people, probably for a wide variety of reasons. But they didn't actually exist, then disappear at the moment the current explanations came into (fairly) universal acceptance.
When events or phenomena occur that aren't yet defined or explained by current science it does not mean they are caused by some particular thing. A lack of knowledge about something doesn't support the validity of any one guess over any other. Many ghostly phenomena could be "localized random fluctuations in electromagnetic fields, specific cause unknown". Although that explanation might not be as romantic or intriguing as "ghosts", it is just as sound given current knowledge.
And what is a debunker, a researcher who isn't coming up with the answers that one has already accepted or wants to hear? Some fairly recent studies about ghosts are discussed in the following articles, and the results seem to show, quite uniformly, that we haven't yet found any evidence to support the existence of ghosts. In fact, the contrary seems to be true. The causes of many phenomena are becoming well explained in ways we can understand according to accepted principles of psychology and physics.
Ghosts 'All in the Mind'quote:
Dr Richard Wiseman, of the University of Hertfordshire, and his colleagues say their work has thrown up some interesting data to suggest why so many people can be spooked in the same building but provides no evidence that ghosts are real.
Ghostly Magnetism Explainedquote:
British psychologists have published research findings which they believe go some way towards explaining why people think they see or feel ghosts.
Palace Ghost Laid to Restquote:
He [Dr. Richard Wiseman of Hertfordshire University] said people's own beliefs in ghosts or other phenomena, coupled with the power of suggestion, played a large part in any reports of a ghostly presence.
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 16:50:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
First, I'm not convinced that the people who report seeing apparitions are necessarily accurately reporting what they see. I'm not saying they are liars, just that they may be confused, emotionally unstable, or prone to see things that just aren't there.
Not everyone who reports seeing ghosts fall into these categories though H. I think most of those who report having encounters with ghosts are not liars...The overwhelming number of reports of encounters with apparitions says ...something is going on here..something we have yet to measure..but no doubt have been able to observe...
Originally posted by H.Humbert
quote:
Second, the idea that ghosts are residual energy is interesting, but so arbitrary an explanation that one wonders how it initially got brought up. Why should we even consider this possibility? If there is no way to measure ghostly energy, then how did anyone ever first suppose ghosts were energy? Did they just make it up? It would appear so. You might as well just suppose ghosts are made from a special kind of marshmallow indetectable to all our instruments. It would be just as substantiated a guess.
How it initially got brought up is because many reports are of people from the past..Many of these reports are of the same apparition in the same atire doing the same reptetive action...i.e. walking up stairs...sitting in a chair that is not visible to the person encountering the sight..Also many ghost reports lack communication with the apparition... these images...phantams seem to be residual energy...
Originally posted by H
quote:
The point is, one can literally make up any "theory" to explain ghosts, but just because they are interesting doesn't mean they are anything but wild guesses. Real theories should make useful predictions that we can test.
Yes true one can make up any theory...but many credible people over the course of 100 years have gathered much information concerning ghosts... There are possible predictibility i.e. emotional tragedy...but measuring has yet to be discovered...one thing that does remain is observation...1,000 of people all over the world report ghostly sightings everyday
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
So that's the first place we should start. If the energy-ghost hypothesis were true, how could we test it? Do you have any ideas?
Yes I believe that more research should be done in places deemed to be haunted...Maybe a year long investigation...One should live at this place being able to observe ...record and measure...live in the house like those who reportedly see these phantams on a daily basis..Not just come one day for a couple of hours.. |
| Edited by - Storm on 07/31/2005 17:36:41 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 19:09:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Yes I believe that more research should be done in places deemed to be haunted...Maybe a year long investigation...One should live at this place being able to observe ...record and measure...live in the house like those who reportedly see these phantams on a daily basis..Not just come one day for a couple of hours..
Record and measure what?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2005 : 07:10:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
In short: What is "Persistent personal energy"? How has it been observed? How does it work?
Persistent Personal Energy... hmm... phantasml manifestations of those previously known on earth...observed through the never ending testomonies of the public...
I thought the you were originally trying to explain that phantasmal manifestations (ghosts) were made of Persistent Personal Energy. You now claim that Persistent Personal Energy is a ghost. Storm, you're talking in circles. If ghosts are energy, what is this energy? Define it, please. Explain it's origin and how one can measure it. Otherwise you and the authors you read are just making up terms that sound scientific but explain nothing.
Now, I'm gonna go out on a limb here. I'll explain the theological construct of persistent personal energy. (Don't try this at home kids, I am a professional.  ) Keep in mind that these are theological constructs and unburdened by the weight of scientific study.
Life eminates a psychic energy. It is this energy which we can use to do magickal work. It is has our own signature and feeds in and around our auras. This is not to be confused with the elemental energy which is all around us. Which we can pull in to ourselves and convert into psychic energy.
Very powerful emotions or death shocks trigger an unconscious conversion of elemental energy (sometimes through proximity of Ley lines) to psychic energy which become imprinted on the area where the event occurred. The strength of the psychic energy imprinted upon the area depends on the amount of energy the individual had during the event. Interactions of people in an area or changes in the area will cause the psychic energy to dissapate over time. As we move through the area, our own souls will draw in the psychic energies and convert it over to our own signatures. Likewise, as the energy gets physically dispersed (as parts of the environment are moved farther apart or replaced altogether) it loses cohesiveness.
As such, most hauntings last approximately 100 years. Extremely violent emotions imprinted on an area may last centuries, but appear as what is sometimes described as an elemental.
The preceding has been a faith based explaination of persistant personal energy. It has no studies, research, nor evidence to back up the theological constructs contained within. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2005 : 17:26:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Record and measure what?
Temperature change... electromagnetic fields .... surges in electrical equipment... These have known and been recorded to be affected in locales termed haunted.... I have had numerous experiences with power failure..even though batteries are new...It is almost as if the batteries become drained to the point of not functioning...yet after awhile they begin to function agian...usually upon moving from the haunted spot...Like I said I have had numerous experiences with this phenomenon...
Does this mean ghost exist...well it is some good evidence toward the possibility.. due to the fact that this happens in locales which are said haunted..i.e. Apparitions,unusal noises, smells, knockings..
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2005 : 17:46:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
First, I'm not convinced that the people who report seeing apparitions are necessarily accurately reporting what they see. I'm not saying they are liars, just that they may be confused, emotionally unstable, or prone to see things that just aren't there.
Not everyone who reports seeing ghosts fall into these categories though H. I think most of those who report having encounters with ghosts are not liars...The overwhelming number of reports of encounters with apparitions says ...something is going on here..something we have yet to measure..but no doubt have been able to observe...
How do you know that the above is true? How do you know that every single case of ghosts isn't just someone lying to you? I'm not saying that everyone who claims to see a ghost is a liar, but how do you when when they are or aren't lying?
Then show me how you know they didn't have a false memory, or that they were emotionally unstable, or that they just saw a phenomenon they didn't understand.
Only then can I accept that, "Not everyone who reports seeing ghosts fall into these categories though."
quote:
Temperature change... electromagnetic fields .... surges in electrical equipment... These have known and been recorded to be affected in locales termed haunted....
Until you can find a connection between ghosts and temperature changes, EMF, and power surges, you have correlation without causation.
But these are all things that occur normally in our everyday life. They can happen when no ghosts are present, so you really don't even have correlation.
Have you ever thought about trying this experiment, Storm?
Take a group of ghost hunters, and find a building that has no history with ghosts or paranormal phenomena. Tell them that 3 children were murdered brutally, and that people have reported seeing weird things. Send them in to investigate.
I would be very interested to hear what they come up with. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 08/02/2005 17:47:53 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2005 : 18:05:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Ricky:
Have you ever thought about trying this experiment, Storm?
Take a group of ghost hunters, and find a building that has no history with ghosts or paranormal phenomena. Tell them that 3 children were murdered brutally, and that people have reported seeing weird things. Send them in to investigate.
I would be very interested to hear what they come up with.
What a wonderful suggestion Ricky!
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2005 : 07:55:35 [Permalink]
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originally posted by Ricky
quote:
How do you know that the above is true? How do you know that every single case of ghosts isn't just someone lying to you? I'm not saying that everyone who claims to see a ghost is a liar, but how do you when when they are or aren't lying?
There are certain cues people give when lying...with many ghost reports different people have experienced the same apparition without knowing of...One... the hauntings and two.. the experiences of otheres previous to theirs.. i.e.
One place that Damian and I investigated was a big southern house converted into a bed and breakfast. in Bartow Florida...
Different guests have experienced numerous encounters with "Ghosts"
But most of these reports were of the same apparition..a woman..the looks of the apparition were of the same of a former owner...Now each of these reports were independent of each other...strangers to each other...lying? doubt it...hallucinating...dout it.. conspiracy...no..telepathy...possibly...residual energy..very possible..
Perhaps ...just think about it...
perhaps when the human body gives off electromagnetic it gets trapped in the environment..especially when a trauma or stressful situation is occurring... then when this energy interacts with someon like a sensitive or medium the mediums mind interpets it...producing the image... that could be why some see or experience "ghosts" and others do not...It is not that living conscious communicative beings are left..but just their residual energy..
Now why it happens? I do not know? Why are there more reports of the deceased then living? I do not know? I can speculate though
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2005 : 09:32:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
originally posted by Ricky
quote:
How do you know that the above is true? How do you know that every single case of ghosts isn't just someone lying to you? I'm not saying that everyone who claims to see a ghost is a liar, but how do you when when they are or aren't lying?
There are certain cues people give when lying...with many ghost reports different people have experienced the same apparition without knowing of...One... the hauntings and two.. the experiences of otheres previous to theirs.. i.e.
One place that Damian and I investigated was a big southern house converted into a bed and breakfast. in Bartow Florida...
Different guests have experienced numerous encounters with "Ghosts"
But most of these reports were of the same apparition..a woman..the looks of the apparition were of the same of a former owner...Now each of these reports were independent of each other...strangers to each other...lying? doubt it...hallucinating...dout it.. conspiracy...no..telepathy...possibly...residual energy..very possible..
Perhaps ...just think about it...
perhaps when the human body gives off electromagnetic it gets trapped in the environment..especially when a trauma or stressful situation is occurring... then when this energy interacts with someon like a sensitive or medium the mediums mind interpets it...producing the image... that could be why some see or experience "ghosts" and others do not...It is not that living conscious communicative beings are left..but just their residual energy..
Now why it happens? I do not know? Why are there more reports of the deceased then living? I do not know? I can speculate though
None of the above? Likely... |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2005 : 11:24:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Storm:
Perhaps ...just think about it...
Fine.
quote:
Storm:
perhaps when the human body gives off electromagnetic it gets trapped in the environment..
There is nothing in physics that suggests that any kind of electromagnetism can get “trapped in the environment.”
And we are talking about such trace amounts, there is no device that can even measure it even if it is there.
quote:
Storm:
..especially when a trauma or stressful situation is occurring... then when this energy interacts with someon like a sensitive or medium the mediums mind interpets it...producing the image... that could be why some see or experience "ghosts" and others do not...
There is no support, other than anecdotal from those who believe in ghosts, that sensitives or mediums do what they think they can do. Most likely, those who see or experience ghosts are either miss interpreting what they are experiencing or are creating ghosts based on the wish to see ghosts. The imagination is a powerful thing and we do know that it can create a full-blown experience that just never happened. That would also explain why some people can't see ghosts. I have read that ghosts never reveal themselves to skeptics because a skeptic doubts that they exist.
“Clap your hands if you believe in fairies….” From Peter Pan.
quote:
Storm:
It is not that living conscious communicative beings are left..but just their residual energy..
The problem is there is no residual energy. And speculating that there might be will not make it so. Again, physics.
quote:
Storm:
Now why it happens? I do not know? Why are there more reports of the deceased then living? I do not know? I can speculate though.
Speculating is what you seem to be best at. You want us to speculate on the possibility that ghosts exist. And yet you will not include in your own speculations the possibility that they don't exist. Go figure…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2005 : 15:07:11 [Permalink]
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originally posted by Kil
quote:
And we are talking about such trace amounts, there is no device that can even measure it even if it is there.
Well..we are doing experiments with emf meters..which in my opinon can read some very interesting results..even if there is no device as of yet that does not mean the trace amounts are not there
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
those who see or experience ghosts are either miss interpreting what they are experiencing or are creating ghosts based on the wish to see ghosts.
Oh right.. miss interpitating apparitions of people of the past with no prior knowledge to their existence...c'mon Kil..ancedotal or not you can't ignore the possibilities..
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
And yet you will not include in your own speculations the possibility that they don't exist.
Oh I have included that...at one time though Kil not now...not after what I have investigated..what I have researched...The phenomenon of "Ghosts"..exist..those theories that have been speculated about for the last hundered or so years of their existence are closer to the truth..than the speculated theory of their non existence.. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2005 : 16:40:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
originally posted by Kil
quote:
And we are talking about such trace amounts, there is no device that can even measure it even if it is there.
Quote Storm:
Well..we are doing experiments with emf meters..which in my opinon can read some very interesting results..even if there is no device as of yet that does not mean the trace amounts are not there
I see you chose not to respond to the first sentence of the paragraph left out of the above quote. I'll repeat it. “There is nothing in physics that suggests that any kind of electromagnetism can get “trapped in the environment.”
quote:
Storm:
Oh right.. miss interpitating apparitions of people of the past with no prior knowledge to their existence...c'mon Kil..ancedotal or not you can't ignore the possibilities..
What gets me about this is that you really aren't kidding. Do you know how many times an eye witness has positively identified a person from a lineup only to find out later that they were mistaken? Eyewitness descriptions and identifications are notoriously unreliable. And I don't ignore the possibility. But unlike you I am not wowed by evidence that is demonstrably suspect.
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
And yet you will not include in your own speculations the possibility that they don't exist.
Quote Storm:
Oh I have included that...at one time though Kil not now...not after what I have investigated..what I have researched...The phenomenon of "Ghosts"..exist..those theories that have been speculated about for the last hundered or so years of their existence are closer to the truth..than the speculated theory of their non existence..
Yes, well, ummmmm, I have an appointment on planet earth…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2005 : 17:37:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
There is nothing in physics that suggests that any kind of electromagnetism can get “trapped in the environment.”
I feel obligated to correct this statement slightly. Ferromagnetism is a process that you describe; however, you need very specific kinds of rocks, and you need much stronger EM fields than the human body can produce. Also, as Ricky pointed out, a very small coronal mass ejection causes a greater environmental effect than anything the human body has ever released. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2005 : 21:49:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well..we are doing experiments
That is possibly the funniest thing I have ever seen from you Storm.
Thanks for the laugh, suprised you didn't hear my guffaw from accross the bay!
Experiments.... haha!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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