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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
 Posted - 03/07/2006 : 23:03:13 [Permalink]
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The bill is fucking insane!
If a woman who is one month into her pregnancy, takes a ride in Space Mountin at Disney World, and has a miscarriage, she's basically committed a Class 5 felony. What does a class 5 felony mean (for us non-US guys)?
But wait! There's more:
quote:
The Legislature finds that, based upon the evidence derived from thirty years of legalized abortions in this country, the interests of pregnant mothers protected under the South Dakota Bill of Rights have been adversely affected as abortions terminate the constitutionally protected fundamental interest of the pregnant mother in her relationship with her child and abortions are performed without a truly informed or voluntary consent or knowing waiver of the woman's rights and interests. The Legislature finds that the state has a duty to protect the pregnant mother's fundamental interest in her relationship with her unborn child.
(Emphasis mine)
So, if I get this straight... The state does not consider the pregnant woman fit to make her own informed decision? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 03/07/2006 23:04:15 |
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Jumbo
New Member
24 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 03:44:56 [Permalink]
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| It also has no exception for rape or incest. So for example a girl raped by a relative has to either go elsewhere for an abortion or have the child. |
The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be lighted |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 04:12:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Jumbo
It also has no exception for rape or incest. So for example a girl raped by a relative has to either go elsewhere for an abortion or have the child.
That's what you get when you don't wear a Burqa.
When this new law is in place we can focus on making homosexuality a capital offence.
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 05:15:32 [Permalink]
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To quote the apparently immortal Montgomery Burns: "Excelllennt!"
It's been a long time coming, so let's crank up the mangle and put this crap through it. It's time and past time that the asshole wing of the fundamentalists found out what happens when the general public finally wakes up pissed.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 05:45:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
The bill is fucking insane!
If a woman who is one month into her pregnancy, takes a ride in Space Mountin at Disney World, and has a miscarriage, she's basically committed a Class 5 felony. What does a class 5 felony mean (for us non-US guys)?
It says no such thing, cut the scare tactics. It says:
"No person may knowingly administer to, prescribe for, or procure for, or sell to any pregnant woman any medicine, drug, or other substance with the specific intent of causing or abetting the termination of the life of an unborn human being unless it is necessary to preserve the life of the pregnant woman, or if there is a serious risk of substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman. No person may knowingly use or employ any instrument or procedure upon a pregnant woman with the specific intent of causing or abetting the termination of the life of an unborn human being unless it is necessary to preserve the life of the pregnant woman, or if there is a serious risk of substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman.
Any violation of this section is a Class 5 felony."
Where does it say that any accidental abortion is a felony?
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 08:06:04 [Permalink]
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Here's another take on it. quote:
Posted Monday, Mar. 06, 2006
South Dakota Governor Mike Rounds had to decide whether to side with the Purists or the Pragmatists in the Abortion Wars. His decision to sign the state's dramatic new abortion bill means the Purists have prevailed, and the moral, political and legal argument surrounding abortion rights is about to turn a corner.
In a country where two thirds of the public does not want to see Roe vs. Wade overturned, but nearly as many favor stricter limits on abortion, pragmatic abortion opponents have pushed for parental notification laws, waiting periods, restrictions on late-term abortions: The strategy was to chip away at Roe to try to shrink it, change its shape, and over time promote a “culture of life” that would view abortion less as a right than a tragedy, perhaps eventually a crime. That gradual approach requires a certain level of hypocrisy—or at least a willing suspension of moral belief—because if you truly equate abortion with murder, it's hard to settle for slowing it down rather than stopping it altogether, right away: the Purist approach.
Which is what South Dakota now proposes to do. Lawmakers threw away the chisel, grabbed a sledgehammer and went at Roe with a fury, all but daring the Supreme Court to step in. The bill they passed last month, HB 1215, bans all abortion, including in cases of rape and incest, including cases that threaten the health of the mother; the only exception is if the mother's survival itself is at risk, and even in those instances the doctor must “make reasonable medical efforts under the circumstances to preserve both the life of the mother and the life of her unborn child.” Doctors caught performing abortions would be charged with a Class 5 felony, punishable by up to five years in prison.
There was all kinds of outcry about a law that goes so far. “Most polls show that between 70 and 80% of the public support access to safe and legal abortion in at least the case of rape and incest,” says Kate Looby, the state director of Planned Parenthood. Indeed, some abortion foes worried that the bill could do more harm than good, galvanizing abortion rights groups, alienating voters whose views are more mixed, and even prompting the Supreme Court to throw out the law, and fortify Roe in the process.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 08:18:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
The bill is fucking insane!
If a woman who is one month into her pregnancy, takes a ride in Space Mountin at Disney World, and has a miscarriage, she's basically committed a Class 5 felony. What does a class 5 felony mean (for us non-US guys)?
It says no such thing, cut the scare tactics. It says:
"No person may knowingly administer to, prescribe for, or procure for, or sell to any pregnant woman any medicine, drug, or other substance with the specific intent of causing or abetting the termination of the life of an unborn human being unless it is necessary to preserve the life of the pregnant woman, or if there is a serious risk of substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman. No person may knowingly use or employ any instrument or procedure upon a pregnant woman with the specific intent of causing or abetting the termination of the life of an unborn human being unless it is necessary to preserve the life of the pregnant woman, or if there is a serious risk of substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman.
Any violation of this section is a Class 5 felony."
Where does it say that any accidental abortion is a felony?
And you think this legislation will stop abortions? That this law says anything else than "poor womenfolk can't understand enough to control their own bodies"?
While accidental abortions are not illegal under this law, it has no carve out for incest or rape. Hey, thats something. Lets force a woman already victimized by someone for rape/incest now be victimized by the state by forcing her to carry the pregnancy to term.
Oh, and women with the misfortune of having a morbidly hydrocephalic fetus, not more late term abortions for you, you now have to go through a more invasive surgery to remove the marginally living fetus (which will die within it's first day of "life") and place the mother's risks much higher than an abortion.
Read the legislation, Robb. There is no consideration for the mother's health in general, only imminent death and serious impairment of a major bodily function.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 11:56:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
And you think this legislation will stop abortions? That this law says anything else than "poor womenfolk can't understand enough to control their own bodies"?
While accidental abortions are not illegal under this law, it has no carve out for incest or rape. Hey, thats something. Lets force a woman already victimized by someone for rape/incest now be victimized by the state by forcing her to carry the pregnancy to term.
I admit that this is a hard issue for me and alot of people. I freely admit that I do not understand what it is like to be a rape victim, or one that is pregnent from rape. But you focus only on one life in the situation, because you beleive there is only one life. It makes sense if you beleive this to abort the baby. But I feel if you beleive that the fetus is a human life at conception (equating a fetus with a new born baby), then you cannot make this exception.
quote:
Oh, and women with the misfortune of having a morbidly hydrocephalic fetus, not more late term abortions for you, you now have to go through a more invasive surgery to remove the marginally living fetus (which will die within it's first day of "life") and place the mother's risks much higher than an abortion.
If the mothers life is in danger, then an abortion can be done under this bill. I can agree that these situations can and should be addressed in any ban on abortion bill. Hopefully by people more knowledgable than me on these medical instances.
quote:
Read the legislation, Robb. There is no consideration for the mother's health in general, only imminent death and serious impairment of a major bodily function.
I think immenent death or serious impairment of a major bodily function is consideration for the womans health. There is no consideration for the baby's health and this is what the bill is for. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 12:06:30 [Permalink]
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The Rude Pundit had a few thoughts on this very topic, yesterday. Scroll down to the second essay -- after reading the first one, of course.quote:
The Solution For South Dakota: More Fucking:
Here's what we do: the age of consent in South Dakota is 16 years old, so this'll be easy. We gotta get a bunch of the smoothest black motherfuckers around, sweet-talkin', hot lookin' African American males, we're talkin' some Terence Howard or Andre 3000 or Taye Diggs-lookin' and actin' dudes, and get 'em on board for a mission to South Dakota, where the past-the-age-of-consent (which is, by the way, 16) white pussies are tight and virginal and ready for fuckin'.
Then we organize us a concert, say a double bill of Common and John Legend, maybe a mini-tour of the fine, repressed towns of Pierre, the ironically-named Deadwood, and the even more ironically-named Sioux Falls, places where meth use and HIV infections due to IV drug abuse are flyin' high.
RP has a nasty way of being nastily right a far too large percentage of the time.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 12:11:46 [Permalink]
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Robb said:
quote:
But I feel if you beleive that the fetus is a human life at conception (equating a fetus with a new born baby), then you cannot make this exception.
You, and those who think like you, need to be institutionalized.
You take your arbitrary point where you believe life begings and then you think it is ok to impose your belief on others.
For me this is the core argument about abortion. Do you have the right to impose your arbitraty beleif on another person?
No, you do not. This is one of those issues that is vastly more important than mere life. We have fought and died for over two centuries in this country to prevent anyone from being able to impose their own arbitrary beliefs on others, and you demented fools rise up in our midst and betray the single most valuable right we have.
You make me sick.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 03/08/2006 12:14:16 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 12:48:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
The bill is fucking insane!
quote:
If a woman who is one month into her pregnancy, takes a ride in Space Mountin at Disney World, and has a miscarriage, she's basically committed a Class 5 felony.
I did not know that Disney World was in South Dakota? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 12:56:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
And you think this legislation will stop abortions? That this law says anything else than "poor womenfolk can't understand enough to control their own bodies"?
While accidental abortions are not illegal under this law, it has no carve out for incest or rape. Hey, thats something. Lets force a woman already victimized by someone for rape/incest now be victimized by the state by forcing her to carry the pregnancy to term.
I admit that this is a hard issue for me and alot of people. I freely admit that I do not understand what it is like to be a rape victim, or one that is pregnent from rape. But you focus only on one life in the situation, because you beleive there is only one life. It makes sense if you beleive this to abort the baby. But I feel if you beleive that the fetus is a human life at conception (equating a fetus with a new born baby), then you cannot make this exception.
I do not believe that a fetus is a sentient being until later in the pregnancy. Scientific studies bear out this contention.
quote:
quote:
Oh, and women with the misfortune of having a morbidly hydrocephalic fetus, not more late term abortions for you, you now have to go through a more invasive surgery to remove the marginally living fetus (which will die within it's first day of "life") and place the mother's risks much higher than an abortion.
If the mothers life is in danger, then an abortion can be done under this bill. I can agree that these situations can and should be addressed in any ban on abortion bill. Hopefully by people more knowledgable than me on these medical instances.
A cesearian section is not life threatening nor has the impact of impairment. It is, however, very hard on a woman's body. Morbidly hydrocephalic fetuses do not constitute a life threatening situation nor has the impact of impairment of major organ for the mother. It is also not sentient. Instead of a brain, it has liquid. It would be commanded to be extracted by cesearian section (much higher risk factor) than by the so called partial birth abortion methodology. (much less streesful on the woman's system and does not open up the abdominal cavity to infection) This bill does not take that into account.
quote:
quote:
Read the legislation, Robb. There is no consideration for the mother's health in general, only imminent death and serious impairment of a major bodily function.
I think immenent death or serious impairment of a major bodily function is consideration for the womans health. There is no consideration for the baby's health and this is what the bill is for.
The definition of baby in this case is overly broad and includes bunches of non-sentient cells. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 13:27:48 [Permalink]
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Dude said:
quote:
Robb said:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But I feel if you beleive that the fetus is a human life at conception (equating a fetus with a new born baby), then you cannot make this exception.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You, and those who think like you, need to be institutionalized.
You take your arbitrary point where you believe life begings and then you think it is ok to impose your belief on others.
For me this is the core argument about abortion. Do you have the right to impose your arbitraty beleif on another person?
No, you do not. This is one of those issues that is vastly more important than mere life. We have fought and died for over two centuries in this country to prevent anyone from being able to impose their own arbitrary beliefs on others, and you demented fools rise up in our midst and betray the single most valuable right we have.
You make me sick.
You, and those who think like you, need to be institutionalized.
You take your arbitrary point where you believe life begings and then you think it is ok to kill those who don't meet your arbitrary criteria..
For me this is the core argument about abortion. Do you have the right to impose your arbitraty beleif on an unborn child?
No, you do not. This is one of those issues that is vastly more important than mere life. We have fought and died for over two centuries in this country to prevent anyone from being able to impose their own arbitrary beliefs on others, and you demented fools rise up in our midst and betray the single most valuable right we have.
You, Dude, and people like you, make me sick.
Go South Dakota! - willing to step out and weather the teeth-gnashing hatred of people like Dude, and save some lives.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 13:33:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Robb said:
quote:
But I feel if you beleive that the fetus is a human life at conception (equating a fetus with a new born baby), then you cannot make this exception.
You, and those who think like you, need to be institutionalized.
You take your arbitrary point where you believe life begings and then you think it is ok to impose your belief on others.
For me this is the core argument about abortion. Do you have the right to impose your arbitraty beleif on another person?
No, you do not. This is one of those issues that is vastly more important than mere life. We have fought and died for over two centuries in this country to prevent anyone from being able to impose their own arbitrary beliefs on others, and you demented fools rise up in our midst and betray the single most valuable right we have.
You make me sick.
quote:
You, and those who think like you, need to be institutionalized.
(bill) That is an arbitrary statement by you, who cares what you think?
quote:
You take your arbitrary point where you believe life begings and then you think it is ok to impose your belief on others.
(bill) Sort of like when arbitrary evolutionary dogma, which you believe in, is imposed on unbelievers of said dogma by the government, through public schools using tax dollars to promote a philosophical worldview that many of the students and their parents fully reject. Of course Dude is fine with this arbitrary belief of his being force fed to others because he will make the arbitrary statement that he has concluded that evolution is science itself. *sigh*
quote:
For me this is the core argument about abortion. Do you have the right to impose your arbitraty beleif on another person?
(bill) Dude will say no, unless the arbitrary belief is his and then all bets are off.
quote:
No, you do not.
(bill) But of course, magically, you do.
quote:
This is one of those issues that is vastly more important than mere life. We have fought and died for over two centuries in this country to prevent anyone from being able to impose their own arbitrary beliefs on others, and you demented fools rise up in our midst and betray the single most valuable right we have.
(bill) But yet dud has no problem with his dogma being forced up on non-believers of his arbitrary beliefs via the public schools.
quote:
You make me sick.
(bill) Try taking a few Tums and chilling out. You have probably worked yourself up an ulcer....
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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