|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/19/2006 : 17:30:48 [Permalink]
|
Ergo, I piss nitroglycerin upon your straw men! And on your quote mining as well!
Case in point: I posted a paragraph concerning Alfred Nobel and his most important contribution to demolitions: the blasting cap. You took the first half of that paragraph and ignored the rest, completely changing the context. Now you take out of context the reasons for not using thremite in demolition implosions.
Are you teaching your children to be this dishonest?
Until and unless empirical evidence is found to the contrary, there were no high explosives used to drop the twin towers.
Have you anything beyond confused rhetoric involving numerous logical fallacies to offer?
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
 |
|
|
ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
 Posted - 10/19/2006 : 17:35:23 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
What's your point here filthy?
His point is that using thermite in demolitions is a bad idea, as it is unstable (making it dangerous for the people working with it) and it can burn in rubble for a long time, meaning that clean up is difficult. So it's not used.
Yes, that and passing along a little information I find interesting. I do that, sometimes.
I've never used thermite myself, but I was required to know something about it. It's really handy stuff and used in industrial applications and in some munitions. It produces extremely high temperatures, and these can be adjusted by the makeup of the thermite itself. Just swap the aluminum for, say, copper or iron and you change the temps.
Fascinating, no?
Not really--just chemistry in action. |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 17:35:32 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Does thermite explode? Or just sort of flare up and sizzle? Remember, part of ergo's claims are that people on the ground heard explosions as the towers were falling.
Given the right conditions, anything that can be made to burn can be made to explode. And given the right conditions, anything can be made to burn. Something to think about... 
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 17:40:10 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Does thermite explode? Or just sort of flare up and sizzle? Remember, part of ergo's claims are that people on the ground heard explosions as the towers were falling.
HH: the issue on this thread is that explosives and/or aluminothermic reactants were used to aid the collapse of the 3 WTC buildings that completely collapsed. The specific evidence being presented is "molten Metal." Please keep comments to this topic.
While potentially related, auditory popping noises or explosions are not a necessary condition of molten metal being found amongst the rubble. |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
|
|
|
ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 17:41:30 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I'm still interesting in "if the only possible way for that molten metal to get where it was was through the use of explosives or aluminothermic reactants," because if the answer is "no," then all the discussion so far in this thread is moot.
What? |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 17:43:18 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Does thermite explode? Or just sort of flare up and sizzle? Remember, part of ergo's claims are that people on the ground heard explosions as the towers were falling.
Given the right conditions, anything that can be made to burn can be made to explode. And given the right conditions, anything can be made to burn. Something to think about...
Ok, point taken. But in the wikipedia article, there is no mention of making any sort of thermite explosive devices. Even the military only uses it for targeted disabling of heavy equipment.
They also mention how difficult the stuff is to ignite properly.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 17:45:08 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Ergo123, editing a post and changing the contents of a post which has already been edited by a Moderator or an Admin is a serious no-no.
If this had happened in one of the forums where I'm moderator, I would have called for a temporary ban, and let the Admins decide if such a measure is warranted.
RED TEXT is reserved for official moderator/admin messages, and must not be edited.
quote:
Is there a list of forum rules somewhere that I missed? If so please direct me and I will familiarize myself with them.
On our FAQ page you will find this.
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 10/19/2006 17:50:41 |
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 17:45:42 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Does thermite explode? Or just sort of flare up and sizzle? Remember, part of ergo's claims are that people on the ground heard explosions as the towers were falling.
HH: the issue on this thread is that explosives and/or aluminothermic reactants were used to aid the collapse of the 3 WTC buildings that completely collapsed. The specific evidence being presented is "molten Metal." Please keep comments to this topic.
While potentially related, auditory popping noises or explosions are not a necessary condition of molten metal being found amongst the rubble.
Ok, well whenever you do get around to trying to piece together a cohesive, sensible narrative, these are the sorts of inconsistencies you'll need to account for. Whenever that is, of course.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/19/2006 17:46:43 |
|
|
|
Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 17:46:14 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
Um, so you are saying that it is an unlikely candidate because it would be too dangerous?  You do realize we are talking about a criminal event, right? I could see your point if it was an old building contracted to be demolished. But the goal here--if such materials were used to bring down the buildings--was to make it look like terrorists attacked us; it means whoever did it was willing to kill thousands of people.
You guys continue to think of this as a traditional job--with all the safety and OSHA concerns that would go along with it. You really crack me up!
No, here's what's funny-- for you to be right, your cool critically-thought conspiracy must now involve hundreds of people who knowingly took dangerous explosives into a building and secretly set them up at great risk to their own lives all so George Bush and his super-secret cabal could start their GWOT. Moreover, the brilliant minds behind this decided to use unconventional materials-- for reasons only their diabolical minds know-- to cary out their mysterious mission. Yeah, that makes sense. (I'd use the little "lol" smiley, but I find it rather obnoxious.) You're a better skeptic than I am. Because this is exactly the sort of thing that skeptics do.
quote:
quote:
As for the eye-witness accounts, it is simply something I believe to be the case.
Ah--you stick with your unsupported opinion in the face of observed data. I didn't realize "skeptic" meant 'someone who only believes what they thought before seeing any evidence...'
Tragically, the utter irony of you lamenting my being stuck on "unsupported opinion" is lost on you. Not but a few pages ago, you suggested that it was OK to believe somethign even though you weren't claiming it to be true. But when I do it, it's somehow insulting.
quote:
I did read it--and the resolution in the photo is so low it's impossible to determine if there is molten metal dripping off those beams. And that you would use a word like "liquid" to describe a solid just points out your lack of command of the English language. Don't assume everyone is confused by the difference!
I'm trying to figure out how I can be a bigger asshole than you at this point, but it's hard. How about "get better glasses so you can see the photo better"? Oh-- and I guess I should use some smiley now so as to make my point more insulting? Perhaps  ? Or  ? Or  ? These are all fun, aren't they?
In any case, please continue to "believe" what you want re the events of 9-11. Also, keep making "no claim" as to how the buldings collapsed. But when people express skepticism (never as good as you express such things, of course) as to the a conspiacy theory involving demolition of the WTC buildings, mock them because they don't buy into the theory. Keep using lots of smilies, too. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 18:32:39 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I'm still interesting in "if the only possible way for that molten metal to get where it was was through the use of explosives or aluminothermic reactants," because if the answer is "no," then all the discussion so far in this thread is moot.
What?
In your original original post in this thread, which was extant until you deleted your entire preamble (from 09:05:35 server time, when you created this thread, until sometime between 11:07:07 server time and 11:17:16 server time), you wrote that if there existed molten steel in the WTC basements and "if the only possible way for that molten metal to get where it was was through the use of explosives or aluminothermic reactants," then the molten metal is evidence of the use of explosives. Your new preamble, posted at 11:29:35, does not contain as many paragraphs, and leaves out this key and quite correct step in the logical chain. But I know you wrote those words earlier today, because I quoted them while they still existed, at 10:50:49 server time.
So, I won't bother disputing the witness statements right now (other than to say that if someone saw a "molten steel beam" - reference #2 - then it sure wasn't liquid), but will focus on the other extremely important premise: that the only way for there to be molten metal in the WTC basements was for "explosives or aluminothermic reactants" to have been used.
Is that premise known to be true? Your main reference doesn't address that question at all.
Once we get it out of the way, then it will make sense to move on to the questions of whether or not the witness reports seem to be reliable, and (assuming they are) whether or not the molten metal seen in the basement was steel. Until we can agree that the only way for there to have been molten metal in the basements was for there to have been some sort of controlled demolition, the other two points are of little significance. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 19:28:32 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Ergo, I piss nitroglycerin upon your straw men! And on your quote mining as well!
What straw man are you talking about. I am making no claim that the WTC buildings that collapsed on 9-11-01 were brought down, by explosives or aluminothermic reactants. Rather, I am presenting evidence that explosives or aluminothermic reactants were used and am looking for any evidence that the evidence found in my sources is invalid. If you have such evidence, please present it. If you don't, please troll somewhere else.
quote:
Until and unless empirical evidence is found to the contrary, there were no high explosives used to drop the twin towers.
Exactly, filth. And in the original post of this thread (first post on page 1) I offer several pieces of evidence that at least aluminothermic reactants (of which thermite is one) were used. And, BTW, you and cunie have been doing a good job supporting this evidence. And for that I thank you!
|
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
|
|
|
ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 19:33:18 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Does thermite explode? Or just sort of flare up and sizzle? Remember, part of ergo's claims are that people on the ground heard explosions as the towers were falling.
Given the right conditions, anything that can be made to burn can be made to explode. And given the right conditions, anything can be made to burn. Something to think about...
Ok, point taken. But in the wikipedia article, there is no mention of making any sort of thermite explosive devices. Even the military only uses it for targeted disabling of heavy equipment.
They also mention how difficult the stuff is to ignite properly.
HH, you have "explosive device on the brain." (If only...)
Why do you have so much difficulty conceiving of things generally used for one thing being used for some other purpose? You should try watching MacGyver some time. If your lack of creative thinking ability is typical of most Americans, no wonder the public is so easily fooled. |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
|
|
|
ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 19:35:20 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Ergo123, editing a post and changing the contents of a post which has already been edited by a Moderator or an Admin is a serious no-no.
If this had happened in one of the forums where I'm moderator, I would have called for a temporary ban, and let the Admins decide if such a measure is warranted.
RED TEXT is reserved for official moderator/admin messages, and must not be edited.
quote:
Is there a list of forum rules somewhere that I missed? If so please direct me and I will familiarize myself with them.
On our FAQ page you will find this.
What a stupid place to put that. One would never see it if one didn't have a question about it...
BTW, I still haven't found a rule about using red text... |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
| Edited by - ergo123 on 10/19/2006 19:36:01 |
|
|
|
ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 19:37:30 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Does thermite explode? Or just sort of flare up and sizzle? Remember, part of ergo's claims are that people on the ground heard explosions as the towers were falling.
HH: the issue on this thread is that explosives and/or aluminothermic reactants were used to aid the collapse of the 3 WTC buildings that completely collapsed. The specific evidence being presented is "molten Metal." Please keep comments to this topic.
While potentially related, auditory popping noises or explosions are not a necessary condition of molten metal being found amongst the rubble.
Ok, well whenever you do get around to trying to piece together a cohesive, sensible narrative, these are the sorts of inconsistencies you'll need to account for. Whenever that is, of course.
Accounts of hearing explosions might not even need to come up. But hold your breath for my response to this issue anyway. |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 19:48:02 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
Accounts of hearing explosions might not even need to come up.
I only mentioned it because you already brought it up. But I guess we're supposed to have a selective memory and pretend we never read anything you've written in other threads.
quote:
But hold your breath for my response to this issue anyway.
Why would I when I'm fairly confident you can't do any such thing? See, that would actually be an impressive step forward, while you have exhibited nothing but stalling tactics and appeals to ignorance.
P.S. You may want to get your eyes checked. You keep rolling them at inappropriate times. It's beginning to make you look foolish.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Molten metal
