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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 11/07/2006 : 15:00:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
What a bizarre world you live in. What sorts of evidence cannot be faked?
What a bizarre world you live in. By your logic we should let everyone out of every prison as the evidence that put them in prison might have been faked.
No, that's your logic, dumbass. Dave is correct, there is no evidence which is in theory "un-fake-able." That's why no evidence is ever dismissed on the objection that it might have been faked, as you would have us do here. You must provide a reason why some particular piece of evidence is suspect. General complaints that photos may been manipulated isn't evidence that a particular photo has been manipulated, and is therefore insufficient grounds to have the evidence dismissed.
Ergo, not only are you dishonest, confused, annoying, and completely clueless when it comes to the rules of evidence and logic, but you can't even think through where your own premises lead. I shall repeat this for your benefit: no one is ever obligated to meet your unreasonable standards of evidence. You want to dismiss photos that contradict your suspicions, but your wants are irrelevant.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2006 : 15:33:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
What a bizarre world you live in. What sorts of evidence cannot be faked?
What a bizarre world you live in. By your logic we should let everyone out of every prison as the evidence that put them in prison might have been faked.
No, that's your logic, dumbass. Dave is correct, there is no evidence which is in theory "un-fake-able."
What about someone's DNA? While one might be able to fake a DNA test result, one can't just make fake DNA.
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That's why no evidence is ever dismissed on the objection that it might have been faked,
And where is your evidence for this claim?
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...as you would have us do here.
I'm asking nothing of the sort.
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You must provide a reason why some particular piece of evidence is suspect.
I am obliged to do no such thing. If dave wants to enter a photo into evidence he has to provide a reason for me to believe it has not been doctored with intent to defraud or deceive.
quote:
General complaints that photos may been manipulated isn't evidence that a particular photo has been manipulated, and is therefore insufficient grounds to have the evidence dismissed.
And I won't dismiss it on those grounds once it has been submitted as evidence with sufficient authentication. Otherwise, humbiw, I could submit a photo with an explosive device in amongst the ruins and claim it as evidence of a CD.
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Ergo, not only are you dishonest, confused, annoying, and completely clueless when it comes to the rules of evidence and logic, but you can't even think through where your own premises lead.
Like dave, you are all claims and no evidence...
quote:
I shall repeat this for your benefit: no one is ever obligated to meet your unreasonable standards of evidence.
Maybe you consider authentication "unreasonable," but courts do not--at least according to my little brother, who is a cop, and the 2 trial lawyers I share office space with.
While not required by the courts, one of the lawyers told me "any smart attorney would ask that any photograph being offered to the court as evidence be authenticated."
In addition to the questions dave poses as being sufficient for authentication, the other lawyer added, "You would also want to have the photographer testify that he produced the print himself and that he outline any and all modifications made to the image. Then, if any modifications were made, you would want oposing council to produce the original negative or digital file to make sure none of those modifications over-emphasize whatever is at issue."
He said he also usually asks the photographer straight-out if did any manipulation to emphasize anything, or whether the photographer added in or removed any elements to the photo. This guy does a lot of personal injury and property damage and was interested to learn that bends and dents can be exaggerated or minimized in a photo. He is now going to add direct questions on those issues as the severity of damage is frequently an issue in his cases.
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You want to dismiss photos that contradict your suspicions, but your wants are irrelevant.
I just don't want to waste my time dealing with inauthenticated photos. Is that so wrong? |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/07/2006 : 15:53:02 [Permalink]
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What temperature, do you suppose, the piece of mild steel being scrolled is?
The anvil, by the way, is a farrier's anvil. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2006 : 16:01:01 [Permalink]
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Ergo, ask your lawyer friend how many appeals he's won by arguing that the case should be thrown out on the unevidenced suspicion that the previous trial was decided by corrupt attorneys, judge, jury, stenographer, witnesses, and law officals.
The fact that you are suspicious of the official government report is not sufficient grounds to dismiss the evidence found therein.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/07/2006 16:47:46 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2006 : 16:41:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
But one must also show that evidence is authentic.
In light of statements such as this and this
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But failure to find evidence does not negate a Truth, it merely leaves it undiscovered.
show that you are only capable of denying the evidence supporting the official explanation. That there will be no evidence supporting a CD explanation.
There is no evidence supporting the official story--unless you consider speculation evidence.
 No longer trying are you. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2006 : 17:43:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Ergo, ask your lawyer friend how many appeals he's won by arguing that the case should be thrown out on the unevidenced suspicion that the previous trial was decided by corrupt attorneys, judge, jury, stenographer, witnesses, and law officals.
The fact that you are suspicious of the official government report is not sufficient grounds to dismiss the evidence found therein.
What evidence are you talking about hummer? What evidence is the nist report based on. Nearly all the physical evidence was illegally removed from the crime scene. The rest was likely contaminated. They ignored eyewitness testimony so all that was left was photographic in nature--which is incomplete at best.
So what evidence are you talking about? |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2006 : 19:51:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted bu H. Humbert
No, that's your logic, dumbass. Dave is correct, there is no evidence which is in theory "un-fake-able."
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
What about someone's DNA? While one might be able to fake a DNA test result, one can't just make fake DNA.
A fake DNA test result is evidence. It would also be possible to steal someones DNA and have it tested. It is also possible to create a DNA sample that would give the appearance of being from someone, although it in fact wasn't (recombinant DNA technologies have been able to do similar things for quite a while). |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2006 : 20:07:54 [Permalink]
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How were the CD charges set, eh ergo?
D'ya reckon it was done with this?
And where did you get the silly idea that structural steel, or any steel, will keep it's integrity at 2,000 F? I'd really like to see that reference...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 11/07/2006 20:09:26 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2006 : 21:00:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
It's odd that you aren't sure what it is. Maybe you should see someone about it.
What did I say that indicates uncertainty?quote:
How should I know, dave. It's your meltdown. You are the one who said you were enraged, not me.
That was eighteen days ago.quote:
Of course it was arbitrary, dave. Others mention all sorts of off-topic things—especially filthy. Yet you don't warn him, officially or otherwise. Kil also brings up things that are off-topic. In fact, you make them too—and never once have I seen you warn yourself.
And you weren't warned because what you said was off-topic, so how is any of what you just mentioned at all relevant?quote:
quote:
No, you said that you would only accept physical evidence, not what kind of physical evidence.
The physical kind.
So, you will accept the physical kind of physical evidence? Which kind is that? Do you want to taste the steel yourself or what?quote:
You are the one making the claim davey-boy. It's up to you to provide the evidence. At least that's what I've been led to believe…
And I have already done so.quote:
You are so inconsistent, dave. You said I wasted my time providing an answer you didn't ask about, and you responded to it. You seem very confused. Are you usually this inconsistent?
No, what's inconsistent is you.quote:
Oh dave… you are so full of incorrect stereotypes. Check out this photo: http://www.ergointernationalinc.com/_images//CRW_7987.jpg
I doctored this photo...
Show me your evidence that you doctored that photo.quote:
Because you don't act like you understand it—as you have offered no authentication for the images you say exist that show the building bowing.
We're still working on what you would accept, and you've already said that photographs are out (authenticated or not). Besides, why would I offer authentication for something I haven't even shown you yet? You're putting the cart way ahead of the horse.quote:
quote:
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 06:21:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Nearly all the physical evidence was illegally removed from the crime scene.
Ergo's bizzaro world strikes yet again.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 12:05:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
It's odd that you aren't sure what it is. Maybe you should see someone about it.
What did I say that indicates uncertainty?
You said “It's apparently all about you being unable to keep the context of a sentence in sight.”
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How should I know, dave. It's your meltdown. You are the one who said you were enraged, not me.
That was eighteen days ago.
Indeed. Yet after 18 days, you were still enraged enough to “officially warn” me because I referenced an author that was on your arbitrary “do not reference” list.
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quote:
Of course it was arbitrary, dave. Others mention all sorts of off-topic things—especially filthy. Yet you don't warn him, officially or otherwise. Kil also brings up things that are off-topic. In fact, you make them too—and never once have I seen you warn yourself.
And you weren't warned because what you said was off-topic, so how is any of what you just mentioned at all relevant?
Oh, so I was “warned” because I referenced a particular author? How is that any less arbitrary than for being off topic? In the end, it is about you not liking the facts presented by the authors you have banned from my comments. How is that ban not petty and arbitrary?
quote:
quote:
quote:
No, you said that you would only accept physical evidence, not what kind of physical evidence.
The physical kind.
So, you will accept the physical kind of physical evidence? Which kind is that? Do you want to taste the steel yourself or what?
I'm not sure I can define physical evidence in a way you will understand, as it seems axiomatic. I have no desire or need to taste the steel.
quote:
quote:
You are the one making the claim davey-boy. It's up to you to provide the evidence. At least that's what I've been led to believe…
And I have already done so.
Your claim that you have already done so is not supported b |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 13:34:18 [Permalink]
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How can you guys even stand to read this drivel let alone respond carefully for weeks at a time, Just thinking about it makes me want to gag. I dont envy you.
FYI I have just discoved based on a hunch that World War II was faked to make the US look good. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 13:35:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
You said “It's apparently all about you being unable to keep the context of a sentence in sight.”
And "apparently" means "obviously" or "easily seen," so again: what about my prior statement indicated uncertainty?quote:
Indeed. Yet after 18 days, you were still enraged enough to “officially warn” me because I referenced an author that was on your arbitrary “do not reference” list.
You need to get a refund on that degree of yours if you think a person's motivators never change.quote:
Oh, so I was “warned” because I referenced a particular author? How is that any less arbitrary than for being off topic?
No, now you're just guessing.quote:
In the end, it is about you not liking the facts presented by the authors you have banned from my comments.
Just more unevidenced guesswork.quote:
How is that ban not petty and arbitrary?
It's debatable as to whether it was petty, but it was certainly not arbitrary.quote:
I'm not sure I can define physical evidence in a way you will understand, as it seems axiomatic.
Things are not always as they seem. There are many different kinds of physical evidence, from DNA to fingerprints to gunpowder residue. What would this "independent, valid forensic testing" of steel have to show you in order for you to accept it as evidence that the NIST report is correct? I would think that "yes, it's steel" wouldn't be enough for you.quote:
I have no desire or need to taste the steel.
Well, that's one possibility eliminated. Would you like to smell the steel?quote:
Your claim that you have already done so is not supported by any evidence dave. Why don't you just support it with evidence?
Your claim that I have not supported my claims with evidence is not supported by any evidence, ergo.quote:
Then why were you inconsistent here?
I wasn't, that was my point.quote:
And what evidence do you have that I am inconsistent?
Your words speak for themselves.quote:
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 13:47:56 [Permalink]
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This is a Victorian, water-powered drop forge. What temperature do you suppose the iron/steel was when it went under those big trip-hammers?
Didn't you find the Sims-Dudley Dynamite Gun fascinating?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2006 : 18:54:10 [Permalink]
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Just in case any of you haven't seen it, I offer you this.
It's been a while since I've visited "The best page in the universe", and, sadly, there isn't much new stuff up. Of course, if you'd like to suggest a future topic, I'm sure the response will be positive.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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What I don't get 2...
