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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2007 :  06:48:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tomk80

Gorgo, if you have anything constructive to add, please do so. If not, just shut up.
Well we can always dream, can't we?
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2007 :  07:25:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

quote:


I was looking forward to a real debate, so I could learn something, but your response was not helpful. You can still correct that anytime, however. Please!


I said very clearly that I may or may not respond, as I don't have much time. After this week, I will have no time. I don't find it easy to take anyone seriously who says that someone else's responses are "laughable." The standard Skepticfriends response to that is "fuck you asshole" but I refrained from that. I never promised debate. Not sure how to debate someone that knows everything even if I did have time.

Nobody can force anyone to debate, especially on a timetable not your own choosing. But please understand that here is a possibility for you to make your points. And it's clear to me, if not to you, Gorgo, that people here are far more open-minded than you give them credit for. Nobody has said they have "all the answers"! Nobody has said that "crazy Easterners" are the root problem!

They, I think, like I, would like to know the reasons you hold people like Clinton responsible for war crimes in the Balkans, and not Milosevic. Yours is a minority opinion here, but that doesn't make it wrong. You can certainly wait a week or a year to reply. But in the meantime viewpoints opposing your own are being propounded.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2007 :  09:17:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just for the good of it, I'll take this response in parts also:

quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

So far you've said that the evil spawn of Satan, Tito, imposed his evil socialism on the crazy factions of Yugoslavia, who only wanted to kill each other, and it finally failed as all evil plans do, while the elite of the West, always eager to help those in need, tried to help, but the crazy Easterners just weren't able to peacefully run their own country.

I have said fairly little about Tito. So far as I can see, he was a remarkably strong leader to be able to withstand both the powers of the West and the East for such a long time the way he di and for being able to keep the country running so smoothly. I don't see what's wrong with saying that he was the reason the country was kept running, as you see immediately that the different republics come in a deadlock immediately after his withdrawal from politics. I have not said anything about socialism being evil, just that the economy in Yugoslavia was deficient. That's not a particularly strange statement to make for a country with a 34% annual inflation rate. I haven't said anything about the West coming in for 'help' as of yet either. Have you even read my posts, Gorgo?

quote:
So, it took the good, but reluctant, Bill Clinton to bomb them back to Satan. Of course, bombing their homes and their infrastructure would have helped normal people, but these were crazy easterners, and well, you know how them crazy Balkans folks are. They don't know how to do anything but slaughter each other, especially those Serbs, who've taken over as the spawn of Satan, trying to impose that evil socialism.

As I said, your view of Clinton's actions seem overly simplistic. This response does nothing to change that suspicion. I haven't gotten to the point of Clinton's interventions yet. I stated what I think now, but everything I think is up for revision. But only after I studied the matter and with good arguments. I haven't studied it and you definitely have no come up with any good arguments.

quote:
Do I about have it?

You're so far off the mark that it's alsmost insulting. Are you sure you've taken your meds? Really. I greatly admire Tito for his ability to keep the country together for as long as he did. I do not think socialism is evil, I'm dutch, remember? Although not extreme left, socialism is deeply ingrained in our country, as it is in many European nations. Nevertheless, the economy as it was organized in Yugoslavia did not work either. It wasn't evil, but it wasn't working either. Although this is always speculation, I would posit that Yugoslavia's economy would have gone bankrupt with or without outside interference. I will use my next post to detail why, since that was my plan from the outset.

quote:
Nothing about the IMF, nothing about the NED, nothing about the Germans.

I guess the sentence: "If not, my next post will detail the reasons for the internal struggles in the republic." was not proper english or something? Also the sentence in my OP "I have no idea how the actions of the Western nations affected the economy of Yugoslavia" was hard to understand I take it? It's not like I'm a miracle kid who can study the whole of the Yugoslavian war-history in a day.

quote:
A plain and simple story that everyone knows. Milosevic was like Hitler slaughtering people by the millions in concentration camps, and now the people of Yugoslavia finally have the separate nations they want without fear of being touched by someone of another "nationality."

This is far beyond where we are now. I'm in 1989. Milosevic has barely come into power. I detailed that Serbia (which was then headed by Milosevic indeed) tried to gain control of it's two provinces Kosovo and Vojvodina. This is not jaw-dropping news, it's been widely reported. Neither is it strange. I probably would have tried the same if I had two autonomous provinces in a country I was leading. All of the things you said that I am supposedly thinking are solely the product of your own mind. I stated specifically that the Serbian part in the ethnic cleansings may have been overreported and detailed reasons why I think so.

quote:
I can see why you think anything else would be laughable and that people who don't agree with you are stupid. It's true. Such a complete story.


Who said I'm finished yet. What I stated specifically to find laughable was your statement the America attacked Serbia and that was an act of war and that is a crime, because it is overly simplistic. I am trying to unravel the causes leading up to and beyond America's actions there and have barely begun. I still hold that the view you have presented so far is overtly simplistic. I find no respect for such views.

If you detail your views in a balanced way, I have reason to take you seriously. So far, I see no reason for that. "War bad" is not a reason in and of itself if you do not present the situation at that time.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2007 :  09:23:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To say something I said is laughable is arrogant and insulting.

Otherwise continue, and I'll try to keep up. I promise nothing. I'm starting a second job next week. This would take a college course to talk about sensibly. That's why I keep saying it's a good idea to read the authors that I've cited. If you find facts that find them wrong, then good for you. I'm all for it.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2007 :  09:41:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've posted all this before, but here is some introductory reading.

http://www.michaelparenti.org/yugoslavia.html

http://www.swans.com/library/art9/herman10.html

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2007 :  09:43:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by tomk80

Gorgo, if you have anything constructive to add, please do so. If not, just shut up.
Well we can always dream, can't we?
And the horse you rode in on, the both of you.

Maybe I should add that I was mostly wishing for the first.

I understand that it can't be easy for you to be the sole beacon of reason and sanity among us close minded idiots, but at least you can take comfort in the fact that the dignity with which you carry your cross is an inspiration to us all.
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2007 :  10:25:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

Again, I'm learning here that I need to treat others as I'm treated. Fuck you asshole.
Faced with such powerful arguments, I see no reason to further diverge from the topic....
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2007 :  11:32:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
I see no reason to further diverge from the topic....



Hopefully, now I seem as smart as some of the fuck-ups here that seem to get respect and treat others like shit somehow. Fuck you.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2007 :  17:53:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, so much for having a debate.



Gorgo, you have made this all about yourself, and your sense of persecution. If your ideas had real merit, you should have jumped at the chance to expound them, rather than jumping at the chance to insult people and make yourself appear paranoid. But I guess your hostility is more important to you than the issue at hand.

Yeah, I know, fuck me, too.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/19/2007 18:07:05
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2007 :  18:47:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It would be more like kiss my ass. Tomk's ideas are laughable.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2007 :  03:16:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You missed the point of my saying fuck you, anyway. It seems that anyone can insult me, and that's fine. The moment I protest, I'm being an asshole. So, I guess I need to start acting like the people who call me asshole. He's a fucking scum-sucking idiot if I disagree with him. Right?

I guess Kil is right. There is no point in posting in politics. I learn some things here and there in other spots on this board, but politics is a place where kids come and insult people.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2007 :  05:12:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
"War bad" is not a reason in and of itself if you do not present the situation at that time.



And one more thing. You live under 78 days and 20,000 tons of bombing with thousands killed and tell me "war bad" you simple-minded cock-face Dutch cunt.

"The former Yugoslavia" is a mess, thanks to you "war good" fucks. Kiss my ass with your fucking encyclopedia excerpts and your insulting tone. Clinton is a fucking murderer. Pick up a goddamn book.

Now. I haven't had any alcohol, like most of the fucks that use this kind of language here, but maybe you cunt-for-brains asslickers can understand me and respect me more for acting like you.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2007 :  08:02:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

quote:
"War bad" is not a reason in and of itself if you do not present the situation at that time.



And one more thing. You live under 78 days and 20,000 tons of bombing with thousands killed and tell me "war bad" you simple-minded cock-face Dutch cunt.

That still doesn't make "war bad" a good reason, Gorgo. I do have sympathy for those living there at this point. But war can be a necessary evil. As in the case of the first Gulf war, where war was necessary to press back Saddam Hussein from Hussein. I would consider ethnic cleansing a good reason for intervention, to take an example. So we need to go over the situation to see what happened, and whether intervention (in this case the bombings) was justified. That is what I am trying to do here, analyze the situation there at the time and come to a conclusion.

So far, you have accused me of thinking I am unfallible, you have presented the "war is bad and hence Clinton is a murderer" argument, accused me of "socialism and Tito -- bad" argument I have not made and pretended that the political situation in Yugoslavia during and shortly after Tito was all hunky-dory. Oh, and thrown around insults.

I have stated very clearly that your "war is bad and hence Clinton is murderer"-argument is laughable, because it is overly simplistic. If that is insulting to you, your problem. But you might want to come with a better argument in that case. You have not done so and only portrayed a lot of strawmen of what I am saying at present. It seems you think you are infallible, that your whole stance is based on a projection of your attitude on me. You think you are infallible and you definitely have some issue here that makes this highly emotional for you. You might have people living there, or you may be grown dependent on a "USA-government has to be bad"-attitude. I don't care. What you haven't done here is present an argument or sources.
quote:
"The former Yugoslavia" is a mess, thanks to you "war good" fucks. Kiss my ass with your fucking encyclopedia excerpts and your insulting tone. Clinton is a fucking murderer. Pick up a goddamn book.

I am. That's the whole point. I am trying to analyze the situation. So far, the only thing you do is, well, nothing really. Yes, the former Yugoslavia is a mess. We know that. But what you haven't demonstrated is that it would not have been a mess without interventions.

quote:
Now. I haven't had any alcohol, like most of the fucks that use this kind of language here, but maybe you cunt-for-brains asslickers can understand me and respect me more for acting like you.


Gorgo, tell me. Where, in all this thread have you really presented anything remotely resembling an argument. How can anyone understand what you are saying, if you do nothing to even remotely promote that understanding.

I see you apparantly have a vested interested here. Why? No idea. I only occasionally read threads that involve you. At this point, to me, you're just, to use the style of argument you used so cogently in this last post "a dumb fuck who presents a wholly simplistic argument and tells me to pick up a book while he clearly himself only picks up books that support his side on the argument and no others (yes, I have read the authors you named and have strong suspicions that your sources do not present honest analyses of the sitution, but that will come much later in this thread).

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2007 :  08:29:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
wholly simplistic argument and tells me to pick up a book while he clearly himself only picks up books that support his side on the argument and no others (yes, I have read the authors you named and have strong suspicions that your sources do not present honest analyses of the sitution, but that will come much later in this thread).



There is no reasonable evidence that the Yugoslavian government was engaged in large-scale ethnic cleansing, and the Serbs themselves, did not commit any more crimes than any other group in the area.

There is also no evidence, that bombing people for 78 days, killing thousands of people and destroying anything that was reasonable in Yugoslavia had any beneficial effect. Your "war good" bullshit is not laughable, it is sick. Mentally deficient. Mad. It is against the U.N. Charter, and was against the rules of NATO itself to attack Yugoslavia. It is a crime. That is not some simplistic "war bad" idea. It is against everything that law and order are about. It is what Saddam Hussein (with the permission of the U.S.) did to Kuwait. It is worse than that. Iraq did not do anywhere near that kind of damage. At least the leadership of Iraq could convince themselves that they had some kind of reason to invade Kuwait. There was no other reason to invade Yugoslavia than to continue to tear it apart and impoverish its inhabitants.

Please continue with whatever you were doing and I will try to follow.

My insulting tirade was not so much against you, although your actions seem arrogant, but rather the way these forums function.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2007 :  08:47:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

quote:
wholly simplistic argument and tells me to pick up a book while he clearly himself only picks up books that support his side on the argument and no others (yes, I have read the authors you named and have strong suspicions that your sources do not present honest analyses of the sitution, but that will come much later in this thread).



There is no reasonable evidence that the Yugoslavian government was engaged in large-scale ethnic cleansing, and the Serbs themselves, did not commit any more crimes than any other group in the area.

There is also no evidence, that bombing people for 78 days, killing thousands of people and destroying anything that was reasonable in Yugoslavia had any beneficial effect. Your "war good" bullshit is not laughable, it is sick. Mentally deficient. Mad. It is against the U.N. Charter, and was against the rules of NATO itself to attack Yugoslavia. It is a crime. That is not some simplistic "war bad" idea. It is against everything that law and order are about. It is what Saddam Hussein (with the permission of the U.S.) did to Kuwait. It is worse than that. Iraq did not do anywhere near that kind of damage. At least the leadership of Iraq could convince themselves that they had some kind of reason to invade Kuwait. There was no other reason to invade Yugoslavia than to continue to tear it apart and impoverish its inhabitants.

Please continue with whatever you were doing and I will try to follow.

My insulting tirade was not so much against you, although your actions seem arrogant, but rather the way these forums function.


Thanks. At least this response enters into things that I can track. I'll get back to this when I get to the US bombings, which is still a long way off.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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