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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 02/19/2007 : 08:18:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Dave, 99.95% of the time I agree with you, but I can't figure out your angle on this. Since when do we allow people to redefine their own terms? When creationists say that evolution is a "religion," we don't say "but of course that's absolutely true in their context." We say "No, that's wrong."
We don't, but we must recognize both that definitions change over time and that "far" is wholly subjective and relative.
Creationists are trying to change the definitions of "evolution" and/or "religion" such that evolution would become a religion, and we simply won't let them. But what qualifies as "far left" in today's political climate here in the USA is already different from what it meant in French revolutionary times, but beskeptigal basically declared socialism and communism to be the "true definition" of "left wing."quote:
She's correct to question the applicability of the label given her, because in this case it is wrong.
Wrong compared to what? Would anyone argue against the fact that beskeptigal's politics are "far left" of Hitler's? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 18:06:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Perhaps we've got too few qualifiers. That is, there's far X, and then there's far X.
Perhaps it's even simpler than that. Was it an imperial "far", or a metric "far"? Then of course there's the whole "how big is your address space anyway?" issue.
I'll understand if someone just says "far Q, John".
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John's just this guy, you know. |
| Edited by - JohnOAS on 02/19/2007 18:08:11 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 18:25:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnOAS
Perhaps it's even simpler than that. Was it an imperial "far", or a metric "far"? Then of course there's the whole "how big is your address space anyway?" issue.
I'll understand if someone just says "far Q, John".
I had to read it three times, but yeah. Far Q indeed!
And I think it was the metric "far". No, no, make that Quaker State. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 18:53:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
We don't, but we must recognize both that definitions change over time and that "far" is wholly subjective and relative.
No, the political spectrum itself doesn't change, and its endpoints are pretty well-defined. From Wikipedia:
quote:
This traditional political spectrum has come to be defined along an axis with socialism and communism, ("the Left") on one end, and nationalism and Fascism ("the Right") on the other.
quote:
Would anyone argue against the fact that beskeptigal's politics are "far left" of Hitler's?
No, and if Mycroft had said beskeptigal's politics are "far left" compared to mine, then he might have been correct. However, by just saying she's "far left," he's saying she falls on the far end of the well-known, pre-established political spectrum. She doesn't, so it's clearly just an attempt to smear her as a radical.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/19/2007 21:47:57 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 22:28:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
No, the political spectrum itself doesn't change, and its endpoints are pretty well-defined. From Wikipedia:quote:
This traditional political spectrum has come to be defined along an axis with socialism and communism, ("the Left") on one end, and nationalism and Fascism ("the Right") on the other.
And by that quoted definition, anyone whose politics are "left of center" is either a socialist or a communist, and anyone who is right of center is a freakin' Nazi. Thank you, H., for making my point for me, especially after it's been pointed out that as far as the rest of the world's observers are concerned, the most-radical Democrat in the US is really on the right wing, anyway. Oh, the Republicans may call the Democrats "commies," but the real commies out there think the Democrats are a bunch of fascists.quote:
No, and if Mycroft had said beskeptigal's politics are "far left" compared to mine, then he might have been correct. However, by just saying she's "far left," he's saying she falls on the far end of the well-known, pre-established political spectrum. She doesn't, so it's clearly just an attempt to smear her as a radical.
And I'm pretty sure that the context was American politics, in which no matter how far left you go, you're probably still right-of-center on the global political scale. A liberal here in the U.S. pretty much has to have a membership card in the American Communist Party to actually be left-of-center on the "traditional" scale.
beskeptigal brought up context, but she just wants to ignore the context in order to be offended. Because the context is that Mycroft thinks that Air America, Media Matters, etc. are "far left," and so he considers beskeptigal to be "far left." That's the only context that's important in parsing what Mycroft really meant, but you and beskeptigal seem to want to ignore that context and replace it with the "traditional" meaning.
Had you or beskeptigal tried to teach Mycroft that those media outlets actually lie to the right of center on a global "traditional" political scale, I'm sure this thread would have been completely different. But the fact is that by today's usage, in America, those media outlets, and beskeptigal herself, are "left wing" sources.
How "far" left is largely an independent question. If "far left" only means as far as one can go, then why in the world do we also use terms like "radical leftist" or "extreme leftist?" Where is the dividing line drawn on the "traditional" scale between not-so-far left and socialism? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 22:58:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
We don't, but we must recognize both that definitions change over time and that "far" is wholly subjective and relative.
No, the political spectrum itself doesn't change, and its endpoints are pretty well-defined. From Wikipedia:
quote:
This traditional political spectrum has come to be defined along an axis with socialism and communism, ("the Left") on one end, and nationalism and Fascism ("the Right") on the other.
quote:
Would anyone argue against the fact that beskeptigal's politics are "far left" of Hitler's?
No, and if Mycroft had said beskeptigal's politics are "far left" compared to mine, then he might have been correct. However, by just saying she's "far left," he's saying she falls on the far end of the well-known, pre-established political spectrum. She doesn't, so it's clearly just an attempt to smear her as a radical.
Bollocks!
“Far”, in the sense that I used it means out of the mainstream. I never defined “far left” as communist, but I do believe it includes people who:
1) Are openly prejudiced against conservatives.
2) Display open hysteria over conservative websites. (See the Free Republic thread)
3) Openly displays an anti-corporate prejudice that borders on paranoia.
4) Displays a distrust of the media such that she believes the “truth” can only be had from a select group of alternative sources.
Keep in mind the comment was made as a direct response to her comment about starting a “fantasy Critical Thinking Party.” That's a noble idea, sure, but not so much from someone who believes “Critical Thinking” means agreeing with her. No single part of the political spectrum has a monopoly on critical thinking. A critical thinker isn't someone who forms all their opinions from what Amy Goodman says, it's someone who can find the wisdom in both Amy Goodman and William Safire.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 23:05:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Perhaps we've got too few qualifiers. That is, there's far X, and then there's far X. And perhaps, too, the modern political climate is so complex now that just "left" and "right" no longer do. There are social issues, economic issues, diplomacit issues, and so on each of which has "left" and "right" positions and none of which is dependant on the other. Aren't Libertarians "right" on economic issues (no taxes, or regulation) and "left" on social issues (no 'moral' legislation)?
These distinctions have always been valid and the terms left and right in my experience have always been overly general. But people still use the terms.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 23:16:21 [Permalink]
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While the discussion of this terminology is quite interesting, the problem here is calling me far left is just a way of dismissing the validity of my views. If they are far left in Mycroft's view, it's because that allows him to dismiss everything as too radical and/or too extreme to be worth looking at. It's a claim I hold a fringe position.
I don't hold a fringe position. I can be adamant the Republican's are not on the best track for the country without just ceding to an attempt to make my position look like it's out of the mainstream. Mycroft can try to characterize my views as extreme. But I won't ignore that false claim.
If anyone is extreme, it's an American political party that has declared torture of prisoners OK and the right to habeas corpus limited. That is valid evidence of extreme views. Being vocal and against such extreme views does not make me far to the left.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/19/2007 23:17:35 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 23:18:45 [Permalink]
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And I see from Mycroft's post that he is attempting to characterize my position as out of the mainstream. Bull!
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 23:31:51 [Permalink]
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So let's look at these claims of what makes a person out of the mainstream:
1) Are openly prejudiced against conservatives.
So around the time of the 2004 election that would have been about half the country. Speaking out against some conservatives doesn't mean I have a blanket prejudice. You can find a number of my posts clearly saying which specific actions of conservatives are at issue and that I believe the problems arise mainly from the leaders and the Evangelical movement. I have said more than once I believe there are many conservatives not in these groups. That would include a large number of Christians that aren't trying to make a theocracy out of this government.
2) Display open hysteria over conservative websites. (See the Free Republic thread)
That's a good one. Your example is a website that encouraged death threats for speaking out against the government. And I posted an article describing the right wing as distancing themselves from the website's main group it was so bad.
3) Openly displays an anti-corporate prejudice that borders on paranoia.
There are laws, in the mainstream I might add, against monopolies for a reason. I'm all for businesses but see no reason we can't properly regulate them.
4) Displays a distrust of the media such that she believes the “truth” can only be had from a select group of alternative sources.
Right. You missed all the specifics so that's your loss.
These are ridiculous charges Mycroft.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 23:37:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Had you or beskeptigal tried to teach Mycroft that those media outlets actually lie to the right of center on a global "traditional" political scale, I'm sure this thread would have been completely different.
So you don't think he knows that already?
That's what this whole debate is about. Conservative pundits use manipulative language to discredit their opposition, and mislabeling what is rightfully "moderate left" or simply "left" politics far left is absolutely a conscious effort to shift the political center in America. I just wasn't aware they had already succeeding in doing so, which is what you seem to be arguing, and that in fact we must simply accept the neocon redistricting of the political boundaries in this country as a settled matter.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/19/2007 23:42:56 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2007 : 00:31:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
So you don't think he knows that already?
That's what this whole debate is about. Conservative pundits use manipulative language...
I am not a conservative pundit.
If you and I disagree on such basics as the definition of "left" "right" or "centrist" then it's nothing short of paranoid delusion for you to claim that I secretly know about and share your definition while trying to espouse another.
Get a grip and then do come back to the discussion. |
| Edited by - Mycroft on 02/20/2007 00:32:21 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2007 : 01:18:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
I am not a conservative pundit.
But you have apparently been influenced by them enough to adopt their methods.
quote:
If you and I disagree on such basics as the definition of "left" "right" or "centrist" then it's nothing short of paranoid delusion for you to claim that I secretly know about and share your definition while trying to espouse another.
It's not my definition, jackass, it's the traditional definition. And if you do seem to be a part of the propaganda movement to shift that definition. Whether it's intentional on your part or you're just a witless dupe is still up for debate.
quote:
Get a grip and then do come back to the discussion.
Yeah, and next you can stoop to calling any democrat a crazy "moonbat." And I'm to believe this habit you have of dismissing opposing political views as radical ravings, extremist, or paranoid delusions must all stem a confusion of definitions. Right. 
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/20/2007 01:21:19 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2007 : 01:21:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
While the discussion of this terminology is quite interesting, the problem here is calling me far left is just a way of dismissing the validity of my views.
If all I did was to call you "far left" without specifically responding to anything you said, this would have some validity. But since that was just one off-hand comment among several posts where I went into detail on exactly why I think you're wrong on many issues, this claim doesn't make any sense.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
If they are far left in Mycroft's view, it's because that allows him to dismiss everything as too radical and/or too extreme to be worth looking at. It's a claim I hold a fringe position.
Since I do look at what you say and respond directly point-by-point to those points that I disagree with, this paragraph amounts to denial.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigalI don't hold a fringe position. I can be adamant the Republican's are not on the best track for the country without just ceding to an attempt to make my position look like it's out of the mainstream. Mycroft can try to characterize my views as extreme. But I won't ignore that false claim.
I have given four specific reasons why I believe your opinions to be out of the mainstream. To then claim it's instead because you're “adamant the Republican's are not on the best track for the country” is nothing short of a lie. I never claimed that as a reason you are out of the mainstream.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigalIf anyone is extreme, it's an American political party that has declared torture of prisoners OK and the right to habeas corpus limited. That is valid evidence of extreme views. Being vocal and against such extreme views does not make me far to the left.
Again, claiming these opinions as my reasons for believing you're outside the mainstream is nothing short of a lie. Lot's of people believe these things who are mainstream, please don't lie and claim I said these opinions are why I think you're outside the mainstream.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
So let's look at these claims of what makes a person out of the mainstream:
1) Are openly prejudiced against conservatives.
So around the time of the 2004 election that would have been about half the country.
Whoa!
Look, I never claimed that not voting Republican was the same as “openly prejudiced against conservatives.” If that were my definition then I'd have to name myself as prejudiced against conservatives too.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Speaking out against some conservatives doesn't mean I have a blanket prejudice.
No, but your recent description of them as misogynistic rednecks does.
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2007 : 01:39:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
I am not a conservative pundit.
But you have apparently been influenced by them enough to adopt their methods.
If the charge is using “manipulative language” then everyone who argues an opinion of any kind is guilty. Everyone tries to frame the discussion in a way that favors their own opinion, to ascribe this behavior to just conservative pundits indicates sloppy and uncritical thinking.
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
If you and I disagree on such basics as the definition of "left" "right" or "centrist" then it's nothing short of paranoid delusion for you to claim that I secretly know about and share your definition while trying to espouse another.
It's not my definition, jackass…
Please, resorting to name-calling does you no credit. If you continue to behave abominably I will simply ignore you.
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
…it's the traditional definition.
According to…you?! French politics of the late 18th century?
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
And if you do seem to be a part of the propaganda movement to shift that definition. Whether it's intentional on your part or you're just a witless dupe is still up for debate.
Show me evidence of any such “propaganda movement.”
quote:
Originally posted by H. HumbertYeah, and next you can stoop to calling any democrat a crazy "moonbat."
I am a Democrat, and I don't consider myself a “moonbat.”
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
And I'm to believe this habit you have of dismissing opposing political views as radical ravings, extremist, or paranoid delusions must all stem a confusion of definitions. Right.
I never made any such claim, and you know that.
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| Edited by - Mycroft on 02/20/2007 01:40:46 |
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My supposed left wing media sources
