|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
 Posted - 04/19/2007 : 07:07:03 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
God is the one who by his own freewill gives life, therefore, is the only one who can rightfully take that life back, as well. And the reality is that God calls everyone's life back to himself. The death rate is still 1:1 the last time I checked so relax, we are all going to make it. God would eventually have called the life back of these babies and pregnant women, anyway. What was cut short for them was time. All of our lives are going to be called back to God at some point in time, some just sooner then later.
If there is a baby lying on the railroad track with a train very soon arriving. I have the opportunity to save the baby.
Am I not evil for just watching, allowing the child to be run over when I could easily have saved it? I, just as God, have during this scenario the same power over life and death as I can just let the baby's time expire.
In my opinion, allowing someone's life to expire when you can easily prevent it with a minimum amount of effort and without anyone suffering any detrimental effects is BAD.
Bill scott, to me it looks like you think differently.
I think the idea of God deciding to allow someone's life to expire prematurely is horrific and evil, and I'm thankful that there is no evidence that God exists, and hope that delusional people who believe in such a God one day gets to see the error of their ways. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
 |
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 08:46:56 [Permalink]
|
quote:
filthy:
Has any of the pathology come out yet? Any drugs involved?
The Los Angeles Times reported today that: "Experts see signs of mental disorders in gunman's videotape". Unfortunatly, they don't have the article online yet so I can't link to it.
The pathologies suspected from watching the video tape include:
Paranoid schizophrenia, psychotic depression with both homicidal and suicidal characteristics and sever bipolar disorder.
The article went on to say:
quote:
But experts said none of the possible mental disorders could fully explain what drove him to carry out the assault.
Having any or all of these disorders does not mean you will be homicidal. And the vast majority of those who do have these problems do not do what Cho did. He obviously saw himself as persecuted, but even that is not enough to suggest that he would do anything like what he did.
Of course, a problem is that no one can talk to Cho now. So these kinds of diagnosis are probably the best the experts can do. Getting down to what was going on in his head in absolute terms is a matter of speculation.
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 10:16:44 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Actually, I'm wondering if NPR had it wrong yesterday and changed the story...
What NPR said yesterday (starting about 3:41 into the audio):Late today, NPR obtained a document filed with the Montgomery County, Virginia, magistrate's office showing the detention was involuntary. The form shows Cho was classified as an immanent danger to himself or others. It says, "his affect is flat, and mood is depressed. He denies suicidal ideation. He does not acknowlegde symptoms of a thought disorder. His insight and judgement are normal." This is important because every gun buyer in Virginia has to attest that he or she has never been involuntarily committed to a mental institution. Steven Halbrook is a lawyer in Virginia who specializes in the Second Amendment.[By phone] If he did meet the Federal standard of being committed then he would have lied on the form, and unfortunately the background check might not have picked that up. Halbrook says it's easy for a background check to catch something like a felony conviction, but the records for mental health institutions are not as centralized or readily available. The other time they mentioned that Cho was involuntarily committed must have been during one of the five-past-the-hour hews updates, because it's not in any of the other All Things Considered stories. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 10:33:45 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
From the information coming out, this guy had a blazing sign out saying, "warning". The police were notified by the shooter's roommates for stalking girls and by the English department chair for writing about killing people.
We don't need more armed people, we need the police to take these reports more seriously and laws that allow them to actually do something before a crime is committed. Or at least something allowing mental health professionals more authority to evaluate and act when needed.
Beskeptigal, are you honestly saying that police should arrest people for stalking even if the victim refuses to press charges? Similarly, do you honestly think a teenager who writes dark poetry should be considered dangerous? Both of these would open the door for some very frightening situations. quote:
Originally posted by Dude
He had not been arrested. And his mental health hospitalization was one of those very temporary voluntary things. In FL two docs can hold you against your will for 72 hours for evaluation. If they keep you beyond that they need a court to be involved.
If Cho's doctors had insisted he be confined outside of the short term, against his will, he would have had a record that showed up on the background check. I'm pretty sure you have to be committed against your will for this kind of thing to show up on a background check.
If the girl who called the cops on him for stalking had pressed charges, had him arrested, he would have failed the background checks.
What is striking is that several of his professors identified him as severely disturbed, but there was no system in place (even after one of them notified the police) to get him some help.
Perhaps the girl didn't press charges because he wasn't really stalking her, Dude, maybe he was just being creepy and she wanted to use the police to scare him off. By the way, I have no real idea of the specifics here, I am just speculating.
Also, how disturbed does somebody have to appear before police involvement is required? At what point do you hospitalize somebody "for his own good" because they write dark poetry? |
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 11:52:57 [Permalink]
|
| Depends on who they plan on voting for... |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 12:36:36 [Permalink]
|
OY said:
quote:
in this case, when the gunman had already been deemed a threat to himself and mentally unstable, but still could go in to a fucking gun shop and buy two lethal weapons, each 30 days apart so he wouldn't arouse suspicion.
He was never involuntarily committed to a mental hospital, which (in FL at least) would show up on the background check.
quote:
It is a rhetorical flourish used to demonstrate how ABSURD such events as the massacre of 32 innocent college students really are
Ok.
quote:
If the NRA didn't ride Congress so hard with money and political threats, there may be better, stricter gun laws, and their enforcement more telling on any would-be perpetrators. As I said earlier, it's all about commerce in the weapons biz that makes it easy for these jack-offs to get sophisticated weapons that kill so quickly and efficiently that approximately 66 parents are in deep grief tonight. Give that a little thought, Dude.
What it sounds like to me is that you are wanting to blame inanimate objects for the deaths of these students.
I was once a member of the NRA, but ever since they decided to back insane, unethical, morally degenerate republicans almost exclusively (just because they support the NRA position), I refuse to belong to their club. But they are not to blame for this either.
And, once again, guns are not the easiest nor most efficient method of carrying out a mass murder. Not even close.
quote:
But, if he were still alive this evening, I would stand strong for his NOT being executed.
Me too.
B10 said:
quote:
Perhaps the girl didn't press charges because he wasn't really stalking her, Dude, maybe he was just being creepy and she wanted to use the police to scare him off. By the way, I have no real idea of the specifics here, I am just speculating.
Well, she called the police. You'd think that things were serious if someone calls the police. I'm not blaming her for anything, I was just saying that if she HAD pressed charges, and had hi arrested, he would have failed the background checks and been unable to buy his guns legally.
quote:
Also, how disturbed does somebody have to appear before police involvement is required? At what point do you hospitalize somebody "for his own good" because they write dark poetry?
Lets lay this strawman to rest. No one has ever suggested that anyone should be detained against their will just for writing dark poetry. But when a professor is disturbed enough by a student's writing that they call the police and notify university officials then it deserves serious evaluation. Their concerns should be taken eriously, because they are likely based on more observation than just dark writing.
And when you take the totality of Cho's indicators and add them up, it is striking that he wasn't given a more thorough psych eval.
In hindsight it seems that he was definitely a candidate for involuntary commitment to a mental health hospital.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 14:49:37 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
In hindsight it seems that he was definitely a candidate for involuntary commitment to a mental health hospital.
But that's just my point. Doesn't this all reek of confirmation bias?
Again, I admit I have limited information on this guy at best, but the possibility of overreaction terrifies me. |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 17:08:46 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
In hindsight it seems that he was definitely a candidate for involuntary commitment to a mental health hospital.
But that's just my point. Doesn't this all reek of confirmation bias?
Again, I admit I have limited information on this guy at best, but the possibility of overreaction terrifies me.
quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
In hindsight it seems that he was definitely a candidate for involuntary commitment to a mental health hospital.
But that's just my point. Doesn't this all reek of confirmation bias?
Again, I admit I have limited information on this guy at best, but the possibility of overreaction terrifies me.
Many people noticed disturbing things about Cho. The problem is there is no way to put what everyone noticed about him together. (Well, actually there is, and Cho made that happen doing what he did. Hindsight is 20/20.) Taken as a whole we get a very grim psychological picture of the guy. I don't think a confirmation bias is required to conclude that even if he had not shot up V Tech he was a very sick individual.
Overreaction because of what Cho did may be a realistic worry, but in his case, I think Dude is correct. If all the pieces of the puzzle that was Cho had been put together, If there had been a way to do that, it is likely that he would have been involuntarily committed, and for good reason…
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 18:20:54 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
John said:
quote:
I've no doubt that some lives would be saved in the sort of situation you've described. My question is, would the number of additional deaths, accidental or otherwise, due to the increase in the number of people having convenient access to firearms outweigh this. I don't know the answer, but I suspect it would do more harm than good.
There are several assumptions in your statement here. Primarily that law abiding people who choose to own/carry a firearm would act outside the law.
There was a fair bit of speculation in my statement, but I honestly don't see why you think I was implying that those interested in getting guns would necessarily act outside the law.
The point I was trying to make was that while someone with a concealed weapon at the most recent event may well have been able to reduce the death toll, the fact is, that these sort of events are few and far between. I was simply pointing out that a corresponding increase in other gun related deaths is possible simply due to the increased number/availability of the weapons, and that this could more than cancel the benefit of the former.
Stopping one mass shooting of tens of people is far more news-worthy, but doesn't really outweigh stopping a larger number of less sensational shootings. (Or perhaps it does, there are social questions/issues buried in there too). I'm not claiming to know the numbers are necessarily stacked that way, but without knowing which way they do go, it's not a safe argument to claim that there would be less shootings overall if more people weapons.
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Every time the laws regarding concealed carry are passed in a new state, or modified in a state, some fool always gets up and predicts disaster, armed shootouts in parking lots over a parking space, and so on. This stuff, obviously, never materializes.
I don't doubt that these sorts of claims are made. Both sides of this debate use some pretty sensationalistic and over the top arguments. I don't believe I suggested such a scenario.
quote:
Originally posted by Dude[/br]
Do carry permits change crime stats? That still remains to be seen. I have never read an article that wasn't slanted to one side of the argument of the other. Does a carry permit make a person less prone to crimes of passion? Doubtfull. Does it make them less likely to be an armed robber? Also doubtfull, because the person who seeks a permit was probably never going to be an armed robber anyway.
I can tell you this, the murder rate in FL has declined every year since the passing of the concealed carry law in 1988.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/flcrime.htm
Obviously I can't say the two events are in a cause/effect relationship, but the correlation is interesting. All violent crime has been on a decline for quite a while in FL.
I agree that the conclusions are far from firm. Australia has had a declining rate of firearm related deaths for some time. Some claim it's related to the legislation and efforts to buy back guns resulting from the 1996 Port Arthur Massacre (35 deaths). But, as we know, correlation doesn't imply causality. It's a complex issue. Both sides of the debate often claim the same statistics support their case. For an example, see a discussion of Australian gun politics and crime statistics. |
John's just this guy, you know. |
|
|
|
Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 18:46:31 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Many people noticed disturbing things about Cho. The problem is there is no way to put what everyone noticed about him together. (Well, actually there is, and Cho made that happen doing what he did. Hindsight is 20/20.) Taken as a whole we get a very grim psychological picture of the guy. I don't think a confirmation bias is required to conclude that even if he had not shot up V Tech he was a very sick individual.
Overreaction because of what Cho did may be a realistic worry, but in his case, I think Dude is correct. If all the pieces of the puzzle that was Cho had been put together, If there had been a way to do that, it is likely that he would have been involuntarily committed, and for good reason…
I can concede the conf. bias point, but would you have any recommendation for putting "the pieces of the puzzle" together without violating our civil liberties?
Perhaps the guy was legitimately nuts, perhaps he should have been institutionalized, perhaps we would be safer if there were a system in place to identify these people; can anybody think of any way to accomplish this? |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 19:25:50 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
Perhaps the guy was legitimately nuts, perhaps he should have been institutionalized, perhaps we would be safer if there were a system in place to identify these people; can anybody think of any way to accomplish this?
Higher local taxes to hire more teachers to lower the student/instructor ratio so that teachers can better get to know the kids during K-12 years. After that, what could be done? Nobody who graduates high school is required to do anything where such oversight is possible. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 19:53:52 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Orwellingly Yurz
...
I even feel sorry for Cho's parents and his sister, even though it seems they might have been a bit lax with their son/brother and his very grave problemo. ...
OY!
Keep in mind that being a parent doesn't mean you are a skilled mental health professional. We don't know if the parents ignored the problem, were naive about it's severity, were in denial, we don't know what the cultural aspects were like keeping family problems secret, there are many reasons one's parents are not always going to recognize the seriousness of a child's problem.
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 21:27:49 [Permalink]
|
B10 said:
quote:
I can concede the conf. bias point, but would you have any recommendation for putting "the pieces of the puzzle" together without violating our civil liberties?
That is a hard question to answer, and I agree with your position. Such a thing would have to be done in a way that doesn't violate our rights.
In this specific case people didn't come out after the fact and say they recognized danger signs with this guy, a lot of them said it well before he did the deed.
I'm not sure how you could gather the peices and get them to the person who makes the decisions on involuntary commitment (a judge) without using some method that violates everyone's rights though.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 21:51:27 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Boron10:
Perhaps the guy was legitimately nuts, perhaps he should have been institutionalized, perhaps we would be safer if there were a system in place to identify these people; can anybody think of any way to accomplish this?
Perhaps? You know, I think there are times when you don't really have to hedge your bets. I think this is one of them...
One answer may be a voluntary, parent approved, psychological screening as a common practice at schools or done by the family physician or some sort of community counseling program to identify a possible problem and inform the parent, who might get help for the child if help is indicated. All results would necessarily be held in the strictest confidence. This solution would probably not work on every kid because there would certainly be some parents against the screening for various reasons. But it might at least reduce the number of children who reach adulthood with an undiagnosed, and therefore untreated mental illness.
(Teen Screen is just such a program. It has already been debated on this site. I can't find the thread or I would provide a link to it. I don't really want to get into another debate about that particular program, but something along those lines needs to be done in my opinion.)
The problem is the stigma attached to mental health problems that don't exist when a child is, for example, routinely screened for tuberculosis or even a hernia. “Cough.” The greatest hurdle for such a program would probably be a lack of trust in the program in matters of correct identification of a problem and keeping the information confidential.
I guess what I am saying, along these lines anyway, is that if anything can be done, it should to be done early, while a child is still a minor and still under the care of parents. With a minor, and with parental approval, no ones rights will be violated…
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 01:30:29 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
From the information coming out, this guy had a blazing sign out saying, "warning". The police were notified by the shooter's roommates for stalking girls and by the English department chair for writing about killing people.
We don't need more armed people, we need the police to take these reports more seriously and laws that allow them to actually do something before a crime is committed. Or at least something allowing mental health professionals more authority to evaluate and act when needed.
Beskeptigal, are you honestly saying that police should arrest people for stalking even if the victim refuses to press charges? Similarly, do you honestly think a teenager who writes dark poetry should be considered dangerous? Both of these would open the door for some very frightening situations.
Actually, no. You're assuming the only option would have been to arrest this guy at the first sign of trouble. Here's what I posted on the JREF forum where I tried to keep one thread on this subject more evidence based.
There are threat assessment teams being used in some places.
Guidelines for Student Threat Assessment: Field Test Findings -> Check out the source: Programs in Clinical and School Psychology...University of Virginia.
National Association of School Psychologists, (NASP), Threat Assessment Fact Sheetquote:
Build an interdisciplinary, trained threat assessment team.
Effective threat assessment is based on the combined efforts of a threat assessment team, usually composed of trained school-based personnel and select members of the broader school community such as law enforcement, faith leaders, and representatives of social service agencies. School personnel should include top administrators, mental health professionals, and security staff. The interdisciplinary team approach improves the efficiency and scope of the assessment process, (which can be time-consuming), provides diverse professional input, and minimizes the risk of observer bias. Specific training for all members of the team is essential! The Secret Service now offers training on preventing incidents of targeted violence, responding to threatening situations, and creating safe school climates.
NASP Threat Assessment resources, including a PPT presentation.
USPS Threat Assessment Team Guide
Google search is full of sources
This guy was showing signs of problems at least a year earlier. He wouldn't likely have been as bad as he was in the last month or so. He had a mental illness and he decompensated, (mental illness term for developing psychosis in this case). Because he was so quiet and so isolated, outward symptoms of his increasing delusions were not noticed.
But a team with the goal of ongoing assessment could have done two things. They could have collected the pieces showing the whole picture. I see this in my job all the time. Everyone has their own tunnel they work out of. The police have the crime area. The psych folks have the mental illness they are presented with, they don't have an investigative team going out looking for evidence. The professors had the disturbed essays and disruptive class behavior, the roommates had the stalking and odd behavior. Neither the roommates nor the professors had the authority to cause action to be taken. They had to rely on the chain of people they report to to do something.
And all it takes in any of these segregated systems is one person not following through either because they underestimate the threat, don't recognize paranoid delusions, feel there is nothing they can do legally, assume someone else is doing it, etc. Tunnel vision and lack of expertise in this specific problem.
You need a team who can gather up the pieces, who know what resources are available, who have the expertise to make the assessment, and what legal authority can be used. Then the second thing they can do is make regular contact with the person at risk, hopefully with the skills to elicit the warning signs if there and assess what level those indicators are at.
No one was checking on this guy once he was contacted. The cops do no more unless someone calls them again. The mental hospital couldn't keep him once he quit saying he was suicidal. With paranoid thought disorders it is especially difficult since their disorder makes them not want treatment. And we don't have too many public health agencies that can make home visits to monitor these people. The teachers and the roommates aren't trained to monitor the guy's behavior changes and even if they notice something, not understanding the system, they would likely assume reporting him again would not be any more productive than reporting him the first time.
That English professor had it right when she said his plays indicated he was severely ill. A threat assessment team could have monitored him. The university could also have required he check in with someone like a counselor on a regular basis but they didn't have a system or plan to do that.
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Baghdad Tech Massacre
