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JEROME DA GNOME
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2418 Posts |
 Posted - 05/14/2007 : 22:47:01 [Permalink]
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Boron--Governmental influcence over the data presentation.
(clear this happens)
"Clear to whom? You have yet to make this clear to anyone"
Filthy povided us with a great link:http://www.aip.org/history/climate/xCooney.htm
This is clear evidence that governments try to present science in a manner that favors their position.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 02:04:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Filthy---Thanks for the infromation and links you posted.
I took copious notes.
Much of the infromation helps me support my claims.
Your first link; as an example, provides scientific data that co2 concentrations were at on point in earths history 3,000 ppm.
This proves the claim false that has been made many times on the forum that co2 levels are the highest they have ever been.
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Cherry-picking ...?
That was then; this is now. You haven't answered my question: where in the report is the government tampering?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 04:05:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I hope you all are enjoying this as much as I.
We debated: Governmental influcence over the data presentation.
(clear this happens: the argument is to degree and sucsess)
One minor presentation of fact.
(I may have lost this one, but it is an agument of
perception)
Should we continue with this thread or shall I start new?
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Am I invisible? Maybe. You've argued that there is givernment influence in the data suggesting man-made global warming. However, I earlier noted that this single report you're put opted to focus on is but one part of a much larger body of data that points to global warming. Myriad articles presented in scientific, peer-reviewed journals attest to this. Are you suggesting that governments altered those, too?
You can start a new thread if you like; we usually lock them at 15 pages anyway due to length, so there's still more posting to do here if that suits you. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 05:02:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Filthy---Thanks for the infromation and links you posted.
I took copious notes.
Much of the infromation helps me support my claims.
Your first link; as an example, provides scientific data that co2 concentrations were at on point in earths history 3,000 ppm.
This proves the claim false that has been made many times on the forum that co2 levels are the highest they have ever been.
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Cherry-picking ...?
That was then; this is now. You haven't answered my question: where in the report is the government tampering?
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One does not use the leaves or the bark to prove the cherries red.
The governments do not tamper with the data. I contend that the data is presented in a manner which makes it seem more dramatic and makes implications that are not supported.
Most of the implications are done in the media outside of the reports of the ipcc.
Catastrophe and drama sell news papers.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 05:10:29 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist---"Are you suggesting that governments altered those, too?
"
I am not suggesting that at all.
I am suggesting that various government agents fund the science which they deem benificial to them.
I am also suggesting that the data (many times) is diseminated in a manner in which points to catastrophe around the corner.
Fear in a population can cause much submission.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 05:21:00 [Permalink]
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JDG said:
I contend that the government agents that reviewed, approved and published the final report(as stated in the ippc documents) presented the data in this manner so that it would be precieved as more dramatic.
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1. Nowhere does the IPCC report say that "government agents" get to "approve" or "publish" anything from this report.
2. Governments are invited to comment, which is a far cry from "review", especially the scientific kind of reviewing. The document clearly states that governments can review the document and comment, so that they have an opportunity to request clarification of the technical language.
Now, please stop asserting these two things. You are blatantly, stupidly, obviously wrong about them.
3. Governments have tried to change the conclusions of this report, and been rebuffed. In fact, they tried to downplay the report's findings, and have the confidence the report states lowered!
I guess that is just a part of their sneaky plan though huh? Publicly be seen trying to downplay the report, so it is LESS dramatic, but secretly do the opposite!
FFS Jerome.... put down the koolaide.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 05:30:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
www.ipcc.ch/about/faq/IPCC%20Procedures.pdf
steps outline in ipcc documents
1.ipcc outline
2.government chooses experts
3.experts prepare 1st draft
4.peer review
5.experts prepare 2nd draft
6.experts and government review
7.experts prepare final draft
8.governmnet review
9.approval of report by ipcc
10.publication of report
Half of the steps involve govermental involment; including two of the three reviews, prior to publication of the data.
Notice the word review, no distintion is made in step 4, 6, and 8 other than who is doing the reviewing.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 06:35:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cuneiformist---"Are you suggesting that governments altered those, too?"
I am not suggesting that at all.
I am suggesting that various government agents fund the science which they deem benificial to them. |
But this doesn't make any sense. Obviously, scientists and researchers study the environment as part of their jobs in an academic setting-- one in which government agencies have little direct (or even indirect) influence. And they publish their work in journals that also feature no government oversight (unless you want to posit that, for instance, the journal Arctic, Antarctic, and Alpine Research is somehow a shadowy propaganda arm of the US government). Yet in general, the various studies that have been put out over the last few decades jibes with the most recent reports.
| I am also suggesting that the data (many times) is diseminated in a manner in which points to catastrophe around the corner. |
This passive sentence is hard to argue with because it's so vague. Who is doing the dissemination? There is a difference between what, for instance, comes out of CNN, and what comes out of the Journal of Biogeography. And while the former may be more sensationalist than the latter, the reasons have nothing to do with government propaganda, and everything to do with CNN's desire to make a profit. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 06:38:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Filthy---Thanks for the infromation and links you posted.
I took copious notes.
Much of the infromation helps me support my claims.
Your first link; as an example, provides scientific data that co2 concentrations were at on point in earths history 3,000 ppm.
This proves the claim false that has been made many times on the forum that co2 levels are the highest they have ever been.
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Cherry-picking ...?
That was then; this is now. You haven't answered my question: where in the report is the government tampering?
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| One does not use the leaves or the bark to prove the cherries red. |
However, one does use the leaves and bark to identify the tree when cherries are out of season.
| The governments do not tamper with the data. I contend that the data is presented in a manner which makes it seem more dramatic and makes implications that are not supported. |
So I am mistaken, then? I distinctly got the impression that you claimed tampering. But where are the unsupported implications? The people who do these studies are very careful about that sort of thing, mainly because they can, and will, get flayed alive at peer review for it. Peer review is not friends getting together for beers and a jawbone session; peer review can get all but bloody. Scientific reputations are made and lost during these reviews.
| Most of the implications are done in the media outside of the reports of the ipcc. |
And now we are discussing media, which I agree is not to be entirely trusted. On any matter. But media spin ain't science and is therefore irrelevant. Sorry 'bout that Fox Nooz, but that's the way it is.
| Catastrophe and drama sell news papers. |
True. I often do the same in my own writings, but I am careful to make my drama & all factually correct and easily reviewed. I'm old enough to remember when the national media, most of it anyway, did the same.
One notes that print media is said to be in decline....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 07:09:08 [Permalink]
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Filthy---"However, one does use the leaves and bark to identify the tree when cherries are out of season."
I liked that respose, thanks.
"But where are the unsupported implications? "
I have found some examples from your earlier links:
1957-Revelle-"In consuming our fossil fuel at a prodigious rate, our civilation is conducting a grandiose scientific experiment"
1957-Edward Taylor-\ stated that the polar ice caps could melt and flood lowlands.
1963-Keeling-- Worlds temp could raise 4c in the next century causing serious flooding.
1970-MIT- The next ice age might start within our own lifetimes
1974-U.S. government panel-a sudden freeze was possible in the next century
1978--Scientists testified before congress that the rise in co2 could bring world disaster.
1977-Academy report (chaired by Revelle) avg temp could increase by 6C by the middle of next century.
1983-EPA- global warming "not a theoretical problem but a threat whose effects will be felt within a few years"
1987-Broecker-"very sharp jumps" of climate in the near future,
"I come here as sort of the prophet"
"There are going to be harsh changes."
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 07:20:06 [Permalink]
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Arctic, Antarctic, and Alpine Research is published by The Institute of Arctic and Alpine Research (INSTAAR)which is part of University of Colorado.
Government monies due flow to AAAR.
This is not proof of anything, just reason to be skeptical.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 07:54:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Filthy---"However, one does use the leaves and bark to identify the tree when cherries are out of season."
I liked that respose, thanks.
"But where are the unsupported implications? "
I have found some examples from your earlier links:
1957-Revelle-"In consuming our fossil fuel at a prodigious rate, our civilation is conducting a grandiose scientific experiment"
1957-Edward Taylor-\ stated that the polar ice caps could melt and flood lowlands.
1963-Keeling-- Worlds temp could raise 4c in the next century causing serious flooding.
1970-MIT- The next ice age might start within our own lifetimes
1974-U.S. government panel-a sudden freeze was possible in the next century
1978--Scientists testified before congress that the rise in co2 could bring world disaster.
1977-Academy report (chaired by Revelle) avg temp could increase by 6C by the middle of next century.
1983-EPA- global warming "not a theoretical problem but a threat whose effects will be felt within a few years"
1987-Broecker-"very sharp jumps" of climate in the near future,
"I come here as sort of the prophet"
"There are going to be harsh changes."
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Conjecture & hypothesis with a little hyperbole thrown in. These are not implications; rather they are educated guesses drawn from observation, especially the earlier ones, with this exception: | 1957-Revelle-"In consuming our fossil fuel at a prodigious rate, our civilization is conducting a grandiose scientific experiment" |
. For the rest of them to pan out, we'll have to wait and see. The 1983 & 1987 quotes are, even as we speak, beginning to.
Rome was not ripped off by the Vatican in a day, and every scientific advance and discovery has begun with something like: "I wonder if..." followed by conjecture(s) and experiments to find support for those conjectures.
But I remind that the ice caps and glaciers are in recession, and overall temperatures have risen a bit over the decades and, hypothetically at least, this could speed up.
Why am I letting myself be dragged into this yet again?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 08:04:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Arctic, Antarctic, and Alpine Research is published by The Institute of Arctic and Alpine Research (INSTAAR)which is part of University of Colorado.
Government monies due flow to AAAR.
This is not proof of anything, just reason to be skeptical.
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No, it's utter paranoia. It is sheer lunacy to think that the government-- be it the US government, the Colorado state government, or the Boulder, CO city government-- somehow controls the content of AAAR. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 08:21:56 [Permalink]
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Filthy---"But I remind that the ice caps and glaciers are in recession"
I would remind that the antarctic is cooling and ice cover is increasing.
In their SciencExpress article, Curt Davis (University of Missouri-Columbia) and his collaborators used satellite radar altimetry measurements from 1992 to 2003 to determine that, on average, the elevation of about 8.5 million square kilometers of the Antarctic interior has been increasing |
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 08:24:37 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist---" No, it's utter paranoia. It is sheer lunacy"
This is a road I will not choose to travel.
You are most likly correct on this point. |
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
| Edited by - JEROME DA GNOME on 05/15/2007 08:26:00 |
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IS GLOBAL WARMING A SCAM TO TAX?
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