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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 06/05/2007 : 18:59:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Do governments regulate the energy industry? How did that work out for California?
Regulation caused blackouts in case you forgot. |
My understanding is that it was a combination of deregulation coupled with crooked dealings at Enron that led to those. More research will clear the picture on this, I'm sure...
ETA: Yeah, thanks for bringing that up, Jerome. Since even a simple search shows that the only person who's forgotten anything is you. For instance,| California electricity crisis (also known as the Western Energy Crisis) of 2000 and 2001 resulted from the gaming of a partially deregulated California energy system by energy companies such as Enron and Reliant Energy. The energy crisis was characterized by a combination of extremely high prices and rolling blackouts. Price instability and spikes lasted from May 2000 to September 2001. Rolling blackouts began in June 2000 and recurred several times in the following 12 months. |
There's more, and more, and on it goes.
Good memory, Jerome. |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 06/05/2007 19:07:56 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 19:16:34 [Permalink]
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Outside of the propaganda, Enron took unfair advantage of California's problem, they did not cause the problem.
Cuneiformist,"partially deregulated" is not deregulated it is regulated; this is the cause of the problem. The energy companies could only sell to the consumer at a regulated price. But, the energy companies had to buy on the open market. The energy companies had to sell energy for less than they payed thus going into debt and became unable to purchase more energy to service the consumers.
Take the time to understand what happened, headlines do not tell the story.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
 Posted - 06/05/2007 : 19:47:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Do governments regulate the energy industry? How did that work out for California?
Regulation caused blackouts in case you forgot.
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And by this, what you mean to say is that you would rather not have inspectors making sure food producers are bringing healthy foods to market? Or have you abandoned your suggestion that regulatory standards are not required for food and medicine production?
I mean, when we shoot your current example to hell, are you going to just jump in with another example of regulatory problems without responding to the last one you brought up?
What a piece of work you are, Jerome…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 19:50:07 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
Enron took unfair advantage of California's problem, they did not cause the problem. |
Yes, they were on the deregulated side of the equation, so they jacked us… Score one for deregulation?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 20:59:53 [Permalink]
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Kil said "they were on the deregulated side of the equation, so they jacked us… Score one for deregulation?'
Partial regulation is not deregulation no matter how many time you say it. Notice how its regulated and is called deregulation? Are the politicos that stupid not to realize what will happen with "partial deregulation" or do they set a trap?
In fact,I am very involved in the Pet food industry and the vast majority of the recalls came without government interference. In fact it was private pet food companies that brought to the attention of government the problem.
Does the government regulate the foods entering our country? If so, then the government regulations failed an entire industry and claimed the lives of many pets. Private pet food companies went after the problem and asked the government for help. Private companies solved the imitiate problem quickly without the government.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 21:22:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Kil said "they were on the deregulated side of the equation, so they jacked us… Score one for deregulation?'
Partial regulation is not deregulation no matter how many time you say it. Notice how its regulated and is called deregulation? Are the politicos that stupid not to realize what will happen with "partial deregulation" or do they set a trap?
In fact,I am very involved in the Pet food industry and the vast majority of the recalls came without government interference. In fact it was private pet food companies that brought to the attention of government the problem.
Does the government regulate the foods entering our country? If so, then the government regulations failed an entire industry and claimed the lives of many pets. Private pet food companies went after the problem and asked the government for help. Private companies solved the imitiate problem quickly without the government.
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Food, even pet food ingredients are subject to inspection and approval. So yes, the system failed. But that failure was mostly due to how thinly the inspectors are spread now, due to cutbacks.
That said, ponder this while you try to change the subject. The pet food companies, the one's that voluntarily recalled the bad pet food that killed many pets were he ones that went for ingredients that were cheap. That's good business, right? I mean, they didn't inspect the ingredients themselves or even investigate the Chinese companies selling them the crap to see if they could be relied on to supply what was promised. And the Chinese have something of a bad reputation for making fraudulent claims about what they are selling.
So am I supposed to conclude that the pet food companies are blameless here? They brought this mess on to themselves. And their motivation was the same as the Chinese companies that sold them the ingredients. Greed.
Better regulations, or more inspectors to go around might have prevented the deaths of those animals…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 21:31:03 [Permalink]
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Kil, the question would be why are American pet food makers buying wheat and corn from China? What is the American government doing? Why would it be cheaper to buy wheat and corn from China(shipped across the ocean) when America is the bread basket of the world( only a train away)?
The American government encourages buying from China.
Why is corn and wheat cheaper from China after shipping across the ocean, than American corn and wheat grown a train track away?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 21:37:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Kil, the question would be why are American pet food makers buying wheat and corn from China? What is the American government doing? Why would it be cheaper to buy wheat and corn from China(shipped across the ocean) when America is the bread basket of the world( only a train away)?
The American government encourages buying from China.
Why is corn and wheat cheaper from China after shipping across the ocean, than American corn and wheat grown a train track away?
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Errmm… I dunno. Perhaps it's because it actually has to be wheat or corn if it is wheat or corn that you are buying? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 21:56:33 [Permalink]
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cGMP (common Good Manufacturing Processes) enforced by the FDA in the pharmaceutical industry prevent impurities from entering our medications. If in the creation of aspirin, acetic anhydride is not fully used in the process some of that chemical can remain in the pill. This substance is extremely caustic to a point that a large enough contamination of the final product - aspirin - can result in death of the individual that takes the pill. Of course, salicylic acid on it's own isn't a pretty character either. cGMPs exist to protect the consumer from poor quality controls, contaminants from other drugs/chemicals, ineffective doses per pill, etc. If you take a 325mg aspirin pill, you would expect there to be 325mg of acetylsalicylic acid in the pill. Regulations and enforcement of cGMP ensures there are in fact 325mg of acetylsalicylic acid in each pill.
Some medications that have too much of the active ingredients in a single pill from poor mixing could kill a person. Medications are often derived from several chemicals which, when combined, form beneficial substances. Contamination from the original ingredients can turn that beneficial chemical compound deadly. All of this is regulated, to protect you, as an individual, from shoddy manufacturing processes.
Additionally, if you take a 'medication' or 'supplement' you expect 'truth in advertising'. The product ought to do what it says it does. This has only recently come under regulation in the area of 'food supplements'. These are substances that may or may not have undergone clinical trials that fall under the term 'alternative medicine'. Chondroitin being one of these substances. from http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/gait/
In a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine, the popular dietary supplement combination of glucosamine plus chondroitin sulfate did not provide significant relief from osteoarthritis pain among all participants. However, a smaller subgroup of study participants with moderate-to-severe pain showed significant relief with the combined supplements. |
Yet prior to this study and these regulations chondroitin was touted as a cure, resulting in rebuilding of cartilage in the joints.
When I buy a food product, I have to know whether there is gluten in that product. Recent regulations require that sources of food starches in food are identified. If the source is not specifically identified, it must be assumed that the source is a combination of various food starches. These various sources can include starch from wheat, rye, or barley. The three products I can not have, nor can I have any product that is derived from one of these three sources, unless it has been through a distillation process. I can not have vinegar, but I can have distilled vinegar, I can still drink scotch, but I can not have a beer or malted drink. This protects my long term health. Celiac Sprue destroys the villi in the small intestine affecting my ability to absorb nutrients from the food I eat. This causes long term health problems for me. I have to maintain a gluten free diet to prevent the damage to my digestive tract.
These regulations are there for a reason beyond just irritating those who think they should not be there. They are there to help ensure the safety of the public as a whole. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 22:04:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Kil, the question would be why are American pet food makers buying wheat and corn from China? What is the American government doing? Why would it be cheaper to buy wheat and corn from China(shipped across the ocean) when America is the bread basket of the world( only a train away)?
The American government encourages buying from China.
Why is corn and wheat cheaper from China after shipping across the ocean, than American corn and wheat grown a train track away?
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Errmm… I dunno. Perhaps it's because it actually has to be wheat or corn if it is wheat or corn that you are buying?
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These are hard questions, I know. Will you make an attempt to answer them?
I do not understand your response. Is your implication that American farmers do not produce wheat and corn?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 22:10:34 [Permalink]
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Trish, to your first point; how long would medicine makers stay in business if their products harmed people? And to your second point; if one eats whole foods one does not need labeling. By the way, grain gluten was what the Chinese added melamine to to create a false positive for increased protein.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 23:24:25 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
I do not understand your response. Is your implication that American farmers do not produce wheat and corn? |
No. I'm saying that the corn and wheat you buy from american farmers is wheat and corn. I'm saying that Chinese wheat and corn are probably wheat and corn too. I'm saying that when the pet food companies cheaped out, they didn't make sure of what it was they were buying... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 00:22:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Kil said "they were on the deregulated side of the equation, so they jacked us… Score one for deregulation?'
Partial regulation is not deregulation no matter how many time you say it. Notice how its regulated and is called deregulation? Are the politicos that stupid not to realize what will happen with "partial deregulation" or do they set a trap?
In fact,I am very involved in the Pet food industry and the vast majority of the recalls came without government interference. In fact it was private pet food companies that brought to the attention of government the problem.
Does the government regulate the foods entering our country? If so, then the government regulations failed an entire industry and claimed the lives of many pets. Private pet food companies went after the problem and asked the government for help. Private companies solved the imitiate problem quickly without the government.
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Jerome, if you are indeed "very involved in the pet food industry," and thus knowledgeable, about the 2006-2007 pet food crisis, then you are being deliberately dishonest with us. The actual timeline of events shows an entirely different picture from the alert and concerned corporations you try to paint for us.
The reports of death of pets, in either December 2006 or February 2007 (the dates are disputed), came first. The first company to react to reports of animal deaths was Menu foods, which reacted in this manner:| The Chief Financial Officer of Menu Foods, Mark Wiens, sells roughly half of his Menu Foods stock on February 26 and 27. He has referred to the timing as a "horrible coincidence." |
(Jesus Fucking Christ!) Then, after test animals die in internal testing nearly two weeks earlier(!), Menu Foods finally began a recall on March 16, 2007.
And Menu Foods was the "pick of the litter," the first company to begin recalls! If the above is a demonstration of anything except the fact more regulatory testing is needed, and that short-term greed can in the real world trump the need for long-term corporate survival, then please begin making that case.
So far, your Libertarian nonsense has only highlighted the crying need for careful regulation and inspection.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/06/2007 00:24:15 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 23:11:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Jerome:
I do not understand your response. Is your implication that American farmers do not produce wheat and corn? |
No. I'm saying that the corn and wheat you buy from american farmers is wheat and corn. I'm saying that Chinese wheat and corn are probably wheat and corn too. I'm saying that when the pet food companies cheaped out, they didn't make sure of what it was they were buying...
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They bought wheat and corn, melamine was added to give a false positive for increased protein.
Again, Why is it cheaper to purchase corn and wheat from China? The American government has direct constitutional authority to levy tariffs. Why is wheat and corn cheaper from China across the ocean than wheat and corn grown in America?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 23:18:30 [Permalink]
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Halfmooner, I did not say they menu handled it great, only better than the American government which has direct control over products imported from across boarders. How many animals died? Do you know? What was the reaction of business? They found the problem and issued a recall at great expense of both money and reputation. Would you like some examples of government regulations allowing KNOWN unsafe products to the market at the behest of a large donor to the party in power?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Fakery Turns Fatal: China...
