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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 06/20/2007 : 19:44:34
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19333824/
The third veto of the Bush43 presidency....
Opponents of the latest stem cell measure insisted that the use of embryonic stem cells was the wrong approach on moral grounds _ and possibly not even the most promising one scientifically. These opponents, who applaud Bush's veto, cite breakthroughs involving medical research conducted with adult stem cells, umbilical cord blood and amniotic fluid, none of which involve the destruction of a human embryo.
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Maybe because those fields of inquiry have been underway for more than 20 years, and have been recieving federal funds for the basic research?
The first human embryonic stem cell was isolated and cultured in 1998. Bush was the first president to have the chance to fund this research, and he effectively destroyed it.
California has just cleared the legal challenges to their state law that sets up an agency to fund HESC research, and some few other states will (hopefully) follow suit in the next few years.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 21:52:08 [Permalink]
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| And Bush was told there were some 90 or so stem cell lines that had been developed and only about 23 of those are viable lines. We need to get moving on this research. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 22:34:41 [Permalink]
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The original sets of stem cell lines were cultured in mice feeder cells, meaning that all of the cell lines to which federal dollars can go for research are potentially contaminated, limiting their actual usefulness for research. Bush restricted federal funding before this field of inquiry was able to get off the ground.
Lets not forget that Bush accomplished this limitation of funds via executive order. There was no legislation passed by congress to restrict funds, because it would have failed a vote even in the republican controlled congress.
(edited to add- I'm looking through executive orders, and I don't see one specifically limiting funding. I was reasonably sure that was how he officially restricted funding, so maybe I'm wrong.)
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 06/20/2007 22:52:24 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 23:21:44 [Permalink]
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This is to divide the masses for the coming election. The point is moot, lots of money is currently being spent privately and at the state level on this exact research.
Divide and conquer. Silly arguments presented to agitate the masses and move then to either side of the petri dish.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 01:33:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
. . .
Divide and conquer. Silly arguments presented to agitate the masses and move then to either side of the petri dish.
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Sounds like your failed plan here, Jerome.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 01:39:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The point is moot, lots of money is currently being spent privately and at the state level on this exact research. |
If that is the case, cool, but unless you can provide any refrences for this claim I'll doubt it. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 05:17:15 [Permalink]
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Seems to me that Georges regard for the sanctity of human life is inconsistent at best.
Snow said Bush's executive order will encourage scientists to work with the government to add research on new stem cell lines –that does not involve the creation, harming or destruction of human embryos
In 2001, I announced a policy to advance stem cell research in a way that is ambitious, ethical, and effective. I became the first President to make federal funds available for embryonic stem cell research -- and my policy did this in ways that would not encourage the destruction of embryos.
Destroying human life in the hopes of saving human life is not ethical
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Where we read in the bill
(2) Prior to consideration of embryo donation and through consultation with the individuals seeking fertility treatment, it was determined that the embryos would never be implanted in a woman and would otherwise be discarded.
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When does George close down fertility clinincs for the destruction of human embryos. Or at least restricting them to the creation of one embryo at a time. But I suppose that George can't be bothered with trifles such as reason, logic, and thinking. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 05:46:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Starman
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The point is moot, lots of money is currently being spent privately and at the state level on this exact research. |
If that is the case, cool, but unless you can provide any refrences for this claim I'll doubt it.
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Google this phrase: spending on stem cell research
1 billion in Massachusetts
3 billion in California
450 million New Jersey
Thats just a precursory look.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 05:47:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
. . .
Divide and conquer. Silly arguments presented to agitate the masses and move then to either side of the petri dish.
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Sounds like your failed plan here, Jerome.
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Paranoid?
Try and stay on topic.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/21/2007 : 06:43:29 [Permalink]
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Bush is merely giving the religious right a little fellatio to keep his membership in Theocratic Dipshits Unlimited current. As a flaming sociopath, he doesn't give a rat's ass about stem cell research beyond giving any money marked for it to his already wealthy friends in industry.
Eye for an eye: Bush rides his bicycle over a cliff, breaking his fucking neck, severing his spinal chord, and causing him to become a quadraplegic. Whereaway then, Smirky?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 09:45:10 [Permalink]
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Destroying human life in the hopes of saving human life is not ethical.
Curious statement from the WH, Tell that to all on Texas's death row.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 10:02:58 [Permalink]
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Jerome, apparently you are unaware of the fact that most basic research gets its funding from the fed. When one person imposes a minority view on the majority, it is also called tyranny.
I agree with you that one of the reasons for the veto on these bills is to perpetuate a wedge issue, to distract the electorate from the real issues of the day...
But the implications and ramifications of this make it more than just a wedge issue. Most basic research in this country is federally funded, only after proof of principle is established do private companies tend to get involved.
Also, California hasn't yet spent a single dime on HESC research. They have been tied up in legal challenges by the theocrats for years. Just last month the legislation cleared the CA supreme court, opening the way for grants to be issued.
Other states are years behind CA.
Bush has strangled HESC research in its infancy, and we are unlikely to see good progress made in this field for atleast another decade now.
And let me get this in preemptively to anyone who thinks a blastocysy is a human life... PUT DOWN THE CRACKPIPE!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 06/21/2007 10:04:34 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 15:57:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Eye for an eye: Bush rides his bicycle over a cliff, breaking his fucking neck, severing his spinal chord, and causing him to become a quadraplegic. Whereaway then, Smirky? |
Then the Science Nazi says, "No stem cells for you!"
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 16:24:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Google this phrase: spending on stem cell research
1 billion in Massachusetts
3 billion in California
450 million New Jersey
Thats just a precursory look. |
Well, if you read the article, these are often proposals. Moreover, in the case of, for instance, MA, it's| $1 billion in state money over 10 years, some borrowed through bond issues, plus $250 million in matching money from private business |
So it's not quite what it sounds like-- assuming it even gets off the ground.
As a counter example, the Federal government spends more than a $1 billion a year for research into just the four most common cancers. One can imagine that if the fundamentalist Christian sect of the Republican Party lost its stranglehold on the government and the US put its full force behind this sort of research, tremendous strides could be made into the treatments of myriad diseases. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 16:34:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
. . .
Divide and conquer. Silly arguments presented to agitate the masses and move then to either side of the petri dish.
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Sounds like your failed plan here, Jerome.
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Paranoid?
Try and stay on topic.
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No, just observant.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 18:44:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rubicon95
Destroying human life in the hopes of saving human life is not ethical.
Curious statement from the WH, Tell that to all on Texas's death row.
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Then you should also cry out to close all those fertilization clinics that throw away thousands of embryos every year...
Do you have any idea how many viable embryos get murdered for every childbirth a fertilization clinic facilitates?
(The embryos that are being used for stem-cell research whould have been destroyed anyhow, so ethically, it's better to use them in the hopes of saving human life, than not using them at all.) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Stem Cell Veto
