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Jarrid
Skeptic Friend
101 Posts |
 Posted - 06/22/2007 : 16:32:37
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Just curious what everyone thinks?
It seems that so many people are dead set against homosexual adoption. I just don't get it. To me, it seems like the obvious choice: a child without a home, constantly struggling for some stability going from foster home to foster home OR a child finding stability with a homosexual family. What do you think?
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I don't have to go swimming through an outhouse to know I wouldn't like it." |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 18:02:27 [Permalink]
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As with placing the child with heterosexuals, the only question should be whether the adopters are going to be good parents. Among many other things, that would mean no placement with either heterosexuals or homosexuals who are pedophiles. Most of both groups are not pedophiles, but there should be strong standards to try to assure the safety of kids in all adoptions.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 18:26:10 [Permalink]
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Unfortunately, it's an uphill battle for homosexuals. For the most part, they can't marry which can have economic ramifications. But I agree with HalfMooner. The sexual orientation of parents should have no bearing on who can or can;t adopt. No one's ever shown a good reason, in my opinion, why this should even be a consideration. Not allowing it because you don't agree with homosexuality is a lame excuse. In fact, you could go so far as to say that attitudes like that harm children if it keeps them from being adopted by loving parents.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 19:53:26 [Permalink]
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I suspect that most opposition comes from bigoted fundies, and is based upon both one incorrect assumption, and one correct assumption.
The incorrect assumption is that growing up with gay foster parents will make a kid turn gay. The correct assumption, and one I think is actually foremost in opponent's minds, is that growing up with gay foster parents will make one more tolerant toward gays.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 20:03:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
I suspect that most opposition comes from bigoted fundies, and is based upon both one incorrect assumption, and one correct assumption.
The incorrect assumption is that growing up with gay foster parents will make a kid turn gay. The correct assumption, and one I think is actually foremost in opponent's minds, is that growing up with gay foster parents will make one more tolerant toward gays.
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The American Psychiatric Association has this to say:
"Numerous studies have shown that the children of gay parents are as likely to be healthy and well adjusted as children raised in heterosexual households. Children raised in gay or lesbian households do not show any greater incidence of homosexuality or gender identity issues than other children."( http://www.healthyminds.org/glbissues.cfm )(Bolding mine)
I say its a non-issue. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 20:12:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by leoofno
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I suspect that most opposition comes from bigoted fundies, and is based upon both one incorrect assumption, and one correct assumption.
The incorrect assumption is that growing up with gay foster parents will make a kid turn gay. The correct assumption, and one I think is actually foremost in opponent's minds, is that growing up with gay foster parents will make one more tolerant toward gays.
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The American Psychiatric Association has this to say:
"Numerous studies have shown that the children of gay parents are as likely to be healthy and well adjusted as children raised in heterosexual households. Children raised in gay or lesbian households do not show any greater incidence of homosexuality or gender identity issues than other children."( http://www.healthyminds.org/glbissues.cfm )(Bolding mine)
I say its a non-issue.
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Not a large data set or time range for that pronouncement.
To the initial point, its better than no parents. There is no ideal.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 22:25:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by leoofno
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I suspect that most opposition comes from bigoted fundies, and is based upon both one incorrect assumption, and one correct assumption.
The incorrect assumption is that growing up with gay foster parents will make a kid turn gay. The correct assumption, and one I think is actually foremost in opponent's minds, is that growing up with gay foster parents will make one more tolerant toward gays.
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The American Psychiatric Association has this to say:
"Numerous studies have shown that the children of gay parents are as likely to be healthy and well adjusted as children raised in heterosexual households. Children raised in gay or lesbian households do not show any greater incidence of homosexuality or gender identity issues than other children."( http://www.healthyminds.org/glbissues.cfm )(Bolding mine)
I say its a non-issue.
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Not a large data set or time range for that pronouncement.
To the initial point, its better than no parents. There is no ideal.
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That summary article merely mentioned that there have been numerous studies. How do you, Jerome, know there is "no large data set or time range for that pronouncement"? Cite your sources for that statement, or retract it.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 22:37:34 [Permalink]
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Halfmooner, in case you did not know, homosexuals raising children is currently a small group(although increasing). Until recent times homosexuals raising children was almost nil. If you have some uncommon knowledge of homosexual families raising children in large quantities over long periods of time I will gladly look at that information.
Those that make extraordinary claims need to present evidence.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 22:47:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Halfmooner, in case you did not know, homosexuals raising children is currently a small group(although increasing). Until recent times homosexuals raising children was almost nil. If you have some uncommon knowledge of homosexual families raising children in large quantities over long periods of time I will gladly look at that information.
Those that make extraordinary claims need to present evidence. |
You made the claim, Jerome: "Not a large data set or time range for that pronouncement." Support your claim or retract it, just as HalfMooner asked, instead of trying to shift the burden of proof onto him (since he didn't make any claims). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 02:20:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Halfmooner, in case you did not know, homosexuals raising children is currently a small group(although increasing). ... |
No, I don't know that. Cite me some evidence.| ... Until recent times homosexuals raising children was almost nil. |
No, I don't know that. Cite me some evidence.| If you have some uncommon knowledge of homosexual families raising children in large quantities over long periods of time I will gladly look at that information. ... |
Show me the claim I made. You can't, because I made no claim. You did. Provide evidence or shut the hell up....
Those that make extraordinary claims need to present evidence. ... |
[My emphasis.]
Exactly! Cite me some evidence.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/23/2007 02:40:02 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 06/23/2007 : 05:09:39 [Permalink]
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It is silly to have to prove common knowledge.
Here is one study:
http://www.dimaggio.org/Eye-Openers/successful_homosexual_families.htm
12,000 interviews
Russell and colleagues Charlotte Patterson and Jennifer Wainright at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville, US, came to this conclusion after sifting through interviews from 1995 with about 12,000 US teenagers and their families. The teens were part of the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, the largest and most comprehensive study of the age group in the US.
"This is the best available evidence to date about how adolescent children fare in families with single-sex parents," Russell told New Scientist.
The researchers found 44 teens being raised by two women in a "marriage-like" relationship. Only six teens reported living with two gay men, so male single-sex families were excluded from the study.
data set 1. 11,950 (man/woman)
data set 2. 44 (woman/woman)
data set 3. 6 (man/man)
Only until teen years.
Small data set, short time period.
So if you have any information that any other studys have larger data sets over longer periods of time; say into adulthood, let me know.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 05:56:23 [Permalink]
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Much to my own displeasure, I must agree with Jerome when he says: | Not a large data set or time range for that pronouncement. |
According to Religious Tolerance: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_mar13.htm
Nobody knows, with accuracy, how children raised in families headed by same-sex parents fare in comparison with children who live in families led by opposite-sex couples.
- Those opposed to same-sex marriage (SSM) often point to studies which show that children raised in families headed by a father and mother fare much better, both in childhood and later as adults. But further examination shows that most of these studies are not applicable here, because they compare families with opposite-sex parents to single-parent families, not with those headed by same-sex parents. Of course, many -- perhaps most -- children in single-parent families will be disadvantaged because of poverty, and the lack of a second parent to give the children more care and attention than one parent can provide.
- Those who advocate same-sex marriage often point to studies which show that children raised in two-parent families do well, regardless of whether the parents are of the same sex or opposite sex. But most of these studies are deeply flawed because:
- They involve self-selected subjects, and/or
- They do not study families over a sufficiently long interval, and/or
- They demonstrate bias on the part of the researchers. |
I also agree with Jerome when he says | To the initial point, its better than no parents. |
Given that there are studies showing that homosexual orientation is just that and NOT a mental disorder, there is no reason to assume that same-sex parents would be worse than opposite-sex ones. So until someone proves that gays are inherently poor parents, it is ignorant prejudice alone which prevents them from both marrying and adopting children. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 06/23/2007 05:57:20 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 05:56:50 [Permalink]
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| It is silly to have to prove common knowledge. |
Bullshit. That aliens and angels regularly visit earth is also "common knowledge," but requires evidence.
But at least you finally dug up a citation. Thank you for that, Jerome!
Clearly, more and larger studies would need to be done if this issue is going to be definitively resolved, but the smaller studies, like the one you mentioned, indicate there is essentially no difference between being raised by heterosexual parents and gay parents.
And since the fundy-bigot notion that gay parenting is worse than heterosexual parenting is the extraordinary claim (with only prejudice to bolster it), the burden of proof is upon those who oppose gay parents to prove their case.
We don't assume that, as a class, heterosexual parents are bad. The same should apply to gay parents. Unless and until evidence against gay parents materializes, there is no reason at all to think they are worse at parenting than straight parents.
Until that unlikely event happens, the default position should be that there is no difference (which is in accordance with the small studies, anyway).
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 05:59:59 [Permalink]
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Mooner wrote: | Bullshit. That aliens and angels regularly visit earth is also "common knowledge," but requires evidence. |
Um, I think Jerome is right on this one. It is common knowledge that same-sex couples raising children has not been common enough for a long enough time to have adequate in-depth studies in comparison to heterosexual couples. The studies done thus far show gay parents to be just as good as straight ones, but those studies are too small a sample. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 06:28:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Mooner wrote: | Bullshit. That aliens and angels regularly visit earth is also "common knowledge," but requires evidence. |
Um, I think Jerome is right on this one. It is common knowledge that same-sex couples raising children has not been common enough for a long enough time to have adequate in-depth studies in comparison to heterosexual couples. The studies done thus far show gay parents to be just as good as straight ones, but those studies are too small a sample.
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I called the "bullshit" on Jerome's general statement about "common knowledge." As with "common sense," that kind of thinking often gets people in trouble, especially when it is used as an excuse not to do research.
If you'd read my post a little further, Marf, you'd have noticed that I agreed that larger studies would have to be done to resolve the particular issue definitively, though I then also pointed out that the default position should be, unless and until such studies prove otherwise, that gay parenting is as good as straight parenting.
Edited to add:
Marf wrote:| It is common knowledge that same-sex couples raising children has not been common enough for a long enough time to have adequate in-depth studies in comparison to heterosexual couples. |
"Common knowledge" or not, I've seen no evidence that gay parenting is a brand-new phenomenon, nor that it is particularly rare. Certainly, large studies of the issue are as rare as hen's teeth, but that doesn't mean that millions of gays haven't been acting as parents since the Stone Age. I just don't know, and, frankly, neither do you. I won't accept anyone's "common knowledge" on the subject.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/23/2007 07:01:18 |
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Homosexual Adoption
