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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 07/02/2007 : 20:17:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
My statement was that the amount was about 30% of a yearly earning.(unless you think I was talking about lifetime earnings ) Not how long you get to pay. |
But it's a meaningless statistic. Why not cite it as a percentage of one's monthly or weekly income? Otherwise, it's just fear-mongering. 
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It matters not how long the offender has to pay, it is still 30% of the average earners income in a year.
12 months in a year by the way.
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Which is only relevant if the convicted only have one year to pay. It is comparing grapes to watermelons.
For a fair comparison, you would have to compare the amount owed over 26 months with the amount earned in 26 months. Dave and Cune get basic comparative scope, why can't you? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 20:21:17 [Permalink]
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All I can say is that I see lots of debt in the present and future with this type of thinking.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 20:34:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
All I can say is that I see lots of debt in the present and future with this type of thinking. |
Look, guys! Unable to cope with or respond to the facts (of which he presented none in this thread), Jerome instead resorts to a personal attack! |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 20:57:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
All I can say is that I see lots of debt in the present and future with this type of thinking. |
Look, guys! Unable to cope with or respond to the facts (of which he presented none in this thread), Jerome instead resorts to a personal attack!
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It is not a presentation of fact to which I am referring; it is the ability to extrapolate debt into inconsequential terms that will cause a person to find themselves in long term service to others that is present in this conversation that I am referring to. (not a personal attack in sight)
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 22:32:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
It is not a presentation of fact to which I am referring... |
It was a presentation of fact to which I was referring, facts that you now refuse to address.| ...it is the ability to extrapolate debt into inconsequential terms that will cause a person to find themselves in long term service to others that is present in this conversation that I am referring to. |
Perhaps $17.86 a week is inconsequential to you. It certainly isn't to me. Either way, it's no reason to allow your bad math to stand unchallenged.| (not a personal attack in sight) |
How could it not be a personal attack? You've switched from arguing about the impersonal facts (tax rates and fine amortization) to arguing about the state of mind of the people disagreeing with you. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 22:48:23 [Permalink]
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O.K., facts. $3000 over 26 months is $115.38/month or $26.83/week.
By the way were do you get the stat that the average Virginian resident makes over $51,000/year?
The tax information is very gross in that they are taking the total national production(or state production) and dividing this by average income levels.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 23:02:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
O.K., facts. $3000 over 26 months is $115.38/month or $26.83/week. |
Good going. Miscalculation. My $17.86 figure was wrong. Although not all months have four weeks each. 26 months is going to be close to 113 weeks no matter when in the year you start, so $26.55 a week. Still less than 3% of gross income, which is the figure to which you must compare if you're going to add it to the tax percentage. But even less inconsequential.| By the way were do you get the stat that the average Virginian resident makes over $51,000/year? |
Bureau of Labor Statistics, but on a page that they don't let anyone link to. Attempting to do so just wound me up on the search page again.| The tax information is very gross in that they are taking the total national production(or state production) and dividing this by average income levels. |
Do you have more accurate figures for the average Virginian? Are that report's figures off by 30% or more? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 12:22:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Jerome? More accurate numbers?
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No.
We can agree that both of us used flawed math.
The point is the amount is excessive.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 12:58:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dave W.
Jerome? More accurate numbers?
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No.
We can agree that both of us used flawed math.
The point is the amount is excessive.
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That is your point. We disagree. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 13:33:17 [Permalink]
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"The civil penalty for going 20 mph over the speed limit will be $1,050, plus $61 in court costs and a fine that is typically about $200."
20 mph over the 55 mph limit is common on the Washington beltway. This is a penalty of $1311 not including the increase of insurance costs. The 55 mph limit on this road is artificially low and leads to more accidents, this has been proven by the fact that surrounding highways have increased the limit and seen a decrease in accidents despite and increase in traffic.
This creates a circumstance in which the state causes unsafe driving conditions and penalizes those that drive at the safer speed.
Do you think a $1311 fine for 30% of the drivers on a road is not excessive?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 14:46:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
"The civil penalty for going 20 mph over the speed limit will be $1,050, plus $61 in court costs and a fine that is typically about $200."
20 mph over the 55 mph limit is common on the Washington beltway. This is a penalty of $1311 not including the increase of insurance costs. The 55 mph limit on this road is artificially low and leads to more accidents, this has been proven by the fact that surrounding highways have increased the limit and seen a decrease in accidents despite and increase in traffic.
This creates a circumstance in which the state causes unsafe driving conditions and penalizes those that drive at the safer speed.
Do you think a $1311 fine for 30% of the drivers on a road is not excessive?
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Nope.
"Everyone else does it" is no defense for breaking the law.
In Illinois, 21 MPH over makes the charge reckless driving.
Don't like it, don't speed that bad. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 15:15:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
"The civil penalty for going 20 mph over the speed limit will be $1,050, plus $61 in court costs and a fine that is typically about $200."
20 mph over the 55 mph limit is common on the Washington beltway. This is a penalty of $1311 not including the increase of insurance costs. The 55 mph limit on this road is artificially low and leads to more accidents, this has been proven by the fact that surrounding highways have increased the limit and seen a decrease in accidents despite and increase in traffic.
This creates a circumstance in which the state causes unsafe driving conditions and penalizes those that drive at the safer speed.
Do you think a $1311 fine for 30% of the drivers on a road is not excessive?
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Nope.
"Everyone else does it" is no defense for breaking the law.
In Illinois, 21 MPH over makes the charge reckless driving.
Don't like it, don't speed that bad.
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The point is that the "law" is designed to extract labor from citizens at the cost of the citizens safety.
Think about this.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 20:36:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
"The civil penalty for going 20 mph over the speed limit will be $1,050, plus $61 in court costs and a fine that is typically about $200."
20 mph over the 55 mph limit is common on the Washington beltway. This is a penalty of $1311 not including the increase of insurance costs. The 55 mph limit on this road is artificially low and leads to more accidents, this has been proven by the fact that surrounding highways have increased the limit and seen a decrease in accidents despite and increase in traffic.
This creates a circumstance in which the state causes unsafe driving conditions and penalizes those that drive at the safer speed.
Do you think a $1311 fine for 30% of the drivers on a road is not excessive?
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Nope.
"Everyone else does it" is no defense for breaking the law.
In Illinois, 21 MPH over makes the charge reckless driving.
Don't like it, don't speed that bad.
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The point is that the "law" is designed to extract labor from citizens at the cost of the citizens safety.
Think about this.
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I have and found your reasoning deeply flawed.
The citizen's safety is comprimised only by their own unwillingness to obey posted speed laws. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 20:46:19 [Permalink]
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Valiant Dancer said:
| The citizen's safety is comprimised only by their own unwillingness to obey posted speed laws. |
So, accelerating to avoid an accident beyond the limit thus breaking the law compromises safety?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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$3000 TICKETS?
