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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2007 : 01:07:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
What is past "everything"?
Nothing? |
How would you get "past" everything? Assume that you could instantaneously teleport as far as you want, with no Relativity effects whatsoever, and tell us how to get to where "everything" ends, please.
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If you were past everything to nothing you also would become nothing, maybe.
The point is the boarder. If there is a "nothing" past "everything" than there must be a boarder, no?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2007 : 03:50:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
What is past "everything"?
Nothing? |
How would you get "past" everything? Assume that you could instantaneously teleport as far as you want, with no Relativity effects whatsoever, and tell us how to get to where "everything" ends, please.
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If you were past everything to nothing you also would become nothing, maybe.
The point is the boarder. If there is a "nothing" past "everything" than there must be a boarder, no?
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Why should there be?
I don't pretend to understand any of this cosmic stuff, and the more I read about it the stranger it all becomes. Kinda like what was in place before the Big bang -- what's up with that?
Of course, "God" explains it all in a paragraph, but in reality that paragraph is nonsense. I find it mind-boggling that science can reach so far back, 13.5 billion years, and observe events occuring just after the universe began; it's time travel of sorts, really.
On the other hand, much of the strangeness of the universe will never be explained, for our powers of observation on such a scale are miniscule.
Borders? We don' need no steenkin' borders! Or do we?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 05:04:44 [Permalink]
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| On the other hand, much of the strangeness of the universe will never be explained, for our powers of observation on such a scale are miniscule. |
And just imagine what we will never be able to know because of our current place and time...for example, some billions of years from now, observers would not be able to know things we do. The background radiation that was a major discovery would no longer be detectable. Unless the knowledge we gather is able to be recovered by these future scientists, such information would never be known.
This does not mean that we cannot theorize and use other information to form a fairly good picture of course. Just makes it a lot harder, and gives some people a lifetime career! |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 07:49:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If you were past everything to nothing you also would become nothing, maybe.
The point is the boarder. If there is a "nothing" past "everything" than there must be a boarder, no? |
The point is that you're engaging in wild speculation. There isn't a hint of a shred of an iota of evidence that there is a "past everything" anywhere. Even today's finite-universe models posit that - in lay terms - with a big enough telescope you can see yourself (the universe being finite because it curves back on itself, not because there's an "edge"). And the only competition to those models is an infinite universe, which wouldn't have a border, either. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 09:11:26 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
If you were past everything to nothing you also would become nothing, maybe.
The point is the boarder. If there is a "nothing" past "everything" than there must be a boarder, no? |
The thing about thinking about borders and such is that the reality of it is not exactly intuitive. If you think of an expanding or finite universe, it is natural to ask “expanding into what? Go in any one direction and eventually you should get to the end of it.” Unfortunately, while that may work here on earth, it does not work in the all that there is, all we can be in universe. Put another way, you can't get to the edge of something that doesn't exist from our perspective. You can't go to where there is no time. As Dave said, go in any one direction and you will wind up back where you started from.
We can gaze into the past, which is what this tread is about. But we can't see what is beyond the past, because that doesn't exist either. There is no time before the universe.
It's mind boggling, I know. And my grasp of it is admittedly very limited. To understand some concepts it is sometimes necessary to let go of some things that seem intuitively obvious in order to get the big picture. Even the scientists struggle with that one.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 09:18:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
And the only competition to those models is an infinite universe, which wouldn't have a border, either. |
Mozina, anyone?  |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 10:56:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Wow, I was not posting directly to you but you felt the need to insult me. Thanks for your assessment. |
It was my honest evaluation based on your track record on SFN. The primary purpose was not to insult you, but to spare the forum a lot of pointless arguments.
Your very first post in this thread manageed to derail the topic. 
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 11:08:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Wow, I was not posting directly to you but you felt the need to insult me. Thanks for your assessment. |
It was my honest evaluation based on your track record on SFN. The primary purpose was not to insult you, but to spare the forum a lot of pointless arguments.
Your very first post in this thread manageed to derail the topic.
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It is a common tactic in group think to name call "outsiders" so as to delegitimized their thoughts; this sets up a barrier to critical thought.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 11:14:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If you were past everything to nothing you also would become nothing, maybe.
The point is the boarder. If there is a "nothing" past "everything" than there must be a boarder, no? |
The point is that you're engaging in wild speculation. There isn't a hint of a shred of an iota of evidence that there is a "past everything" anywhere. Even today's finite-universe models posit that - in lay terms - with a big enough telescope you can see yourself (the universe being finite because it curves back on itself, not because there's an "edge"). And the only competition to those models is an infinite universe, which wouldn't have a border, either.
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Another thought would be more or even unlimited dimensions. In the same way an insect for example probably only perceives two dimensions and we perceive three.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 11:36:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If you were past everything to nothing you also would become nothing, maybe.
The point is the boarder. If there is a "nothing" past "everything" than there must be a boarder, no? |
The point is that you're engaging in wild speculation. There isn't a hint of a shred of an iota of evidence that there is a "past everything" anywhere. Even today's finite-universe models posit that - in lay terms - with a big enough telescope you can see yourself (the universe being finite because it curves back on itself, not because there's an "edge"). And the only competition to those models is an infinite universe, which wouldn't have a border, either.
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Another thought would be more or even unlimited dimensions. In the same way an insect for example probably only perceives two dimensions and we perceive three. |
Leaving aside the insect comment for a moment, you aren't the first person to suggest multiple dimensions. However, none of that is related to the question of if the universe has a border. The universe isn't expanding into anything, so there's nothing outside of it to boarder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 11:40:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
It is a common tactic in group think to name call "outsiders" so as to delegitimized their thoughts; |
That has never been a secret.
| this sets up a barrier to critical thought. |
Where's your evidence for that?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 22:09:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Another thought would be more or even unlimited dimensions. In the same way an insect for example probably only perceives two dimensions and we perceive three. |
No, that's the "universe curves back on itself" thought. An ant walking in a straight line on an orange will eventually get back to where it started, because its universe curves back upon itself. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/05/2007 : 02:44:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If you were past everything to nothing you also would become nothing, maybe.
The point is the boarder. If there is a "nothing" past "everything" than there must be a boarder, no? |
The point is that you're engaging in wild speculation. There isn't a hint of a shred of an iota of evidence that there is a "past everything" anywhere. Even today's finite-universe models posit that - in lay terms - with a big enough telescope you can see yourself (the universe being finite because it curves back on itself, not because there's an "edge"). And the only competition to those models is an infinite universe, which wouldn't have a border, either.
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Another thought would be more or even unlimited dimensions. In the same way an insect for example probably only perceives two dimensions and we perceive three.
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Do not bad-mouth the arthropod's compound eye; they precieve much more than mere dimention; indeed in many (most?) cases, more than our very own, and serve their owners better than any other, existing design could.
Which rather nicely points up our observations of the universe; there is a hell of a lot that we don't/can't see and concievably never will.
Jerome, can you imagine a time when time dosen't exist?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 07/05/2007 02:45:47 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 09:03:44 [Permalink]
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Filthy asked:
| Jerome, can you imagine a time when time dosen't exist? |
Yes, I believe that there is much we can not perceive and much we perceive incorrectly based on the structure of our bodies. Time very well could be a false human perception. In the same way Dave talked about the universe rolling back onto itself time could also do the same thing.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 18:54:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Filthy asked:
| Jerome, can you imagine a time when time dosen't exist? |
Yes, I believe that there is much we can not perceive and much we perceive incorrectly based on the structure of our bodies. Time very well could be a false human perception. In the same way Dave talked about the universe rolling back onto itself time could also do the same thing.
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Sorry, Jerome, but did your "Yes" mean that you can imagine a time when time doesn't exist? (You seemed to answer that you can imagine that what we experience as time might be a misperception - that seems like a different question/answer to me.)
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I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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Let there be Light!
