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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 08/28/2008 : 15:06:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gary 7.1
Then we are left with only our inner wisdom to guide us. |
So that's it. You have no way to determine if you are mistaken or not.
Gary, I'm going to assume that as a human you aren't perfect. I'm also going to assume you would admit as much. This means that at least some of the time your conclusions will be wrong. But because you have no way to check your assumptions against reality, as you you admit you cannot, then it becomes impossible to determine when you are wrong. When you have no outside referent for determining reality, over time you will slip further and further away from the way things really are. Without some check, something to put a brake on bad ideas, you end up building an increasingly faulty picture of reality on a shaky foundation of mistaken assumptions and warped conclusions. And when you impose your own ego onto reality and believe that you shape it instead of the other way around, that, my friend, is the slippery slope into complete madness.
So we can conclude at least two things here. Gary, you are wrong about things of which you are unaware. And two, you have no way of determining what those things are, or even to what extent you are wrong. At this point, since you've been adrift for so long, we can surmise that the gap between your ideas and reality is likely quite large.
| There are always higher states of consciousness and higher states of truth which will inevitably invalidate what we encountered in lower states of consciousness. The achievement of ever higher levels of consciousness is where our focus must lie or, yes, we may get stuck in some delusion or lower realm of truth. |
But this could be the very thing you are mistaken about. Perhaps you aren't accessing higher consciousnesses, but only become more and more lost within your own. Perhaps your system of acquiring knowledge is broken and gives bad answers. You have no way of telling. That's a big problem for you.
| That's why we focus on the process and not just the information that may come to us along the way. While science is looking outside into illusion and trying to quantify an explain that illusion the true nature of reality can only be experienced by going inwards. |
Wrong. When you look inwards, the only thing you will find is yourself--a ball of emotions, drives, needs, biases, and swirling ideas. Nothing about that is a window onto reality. Going inwards is how you shut reality out.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/28/2008 15:12:40 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 15:49:35 [Permalink]
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Good stuff, H., I was going to write much the same. Except I was going to focus more on the whole collection of statements that Gary has made that indicate he has no possible way to know that his "inner wisdom" is steering him in the right direction. If he really believes what he says, he can have no filters whatsoever with which to distinguish the true from the false. He really cannot tell if he's an evil snowmobile or not, because his own "experiences" and "common sense" may have been created through "mind control." Once you entertain such possibilities, it makes no sense to say that you're immune to their influences.
It would be really interesting to be nearby when Gary has his psychotic break. It'll either be the mildest snap in history, because he's already used to living in a schizoid hell, or he's going to take out a whole lot of people because any communications is a form of mind control. Well, that's assuming it hasn't happened yet - and we've had people here who've told us that they're off their medications who didn't sound very much different from Gary. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 16:51:06 [Permalink]
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But this is actually only testing the dowsers' self-proclaimed dowsing skills and does not actually test dowsing itself.
Also the dowsers could have been anyone - even people with a vested interest in making others believe dowsing was a load of rubbish - how can single or double blind tests deal with all of these possibilities? |
Re-thinking about it; isn't it a beautiful example of the no true Scotsman fallacy? |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 16:53:26 [Permalink]
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Yeah, this guy is pretty much delusional.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
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Gary 7.1
Skeptic Friend
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 20:24:42 [Permalink]
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No, but those things still have to be real, otherwise you're experiencing and testing a phantom.
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Things exist beyond the space time continuum. Including the knowledge of past lives. These things can't be tested by any conventional means - do we, therefore, conclude these things don't exist?
If we just hang around for other people to get evidence of these things for us to change our belief systems, then we might wait forever or more likely be manipulated by media lies and manufactured evidence when the people who own the media believe it's time for people to start believing in these things.
If we go inwards, however, and achieve higher states of consciousness we see that proof is not only impossible, but also unnecessary. How can illusion test or prove illusion?
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 20:32:48 [Permalink]
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| You really have to achieve a higher state of consciousness to realize that George Lucas has achieved an even higher state of consciousness when he made his documentary in three parts, followed by another three parts when he achieved an even higher state of consciousness. What a guy! |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 20:38:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gary 7.1
How can illusion test or prove illusion? |
Said without the least bit of comprehension of the irony within it.
Since Gary has shown himself to be nothing more than an illusion (one which he says will be shown to be false by some higher state of consciousness), his words necessarily hold no power. POOF!
Really, Gary, how many more of your assertions are you going to shred without any help from any of us? It would be a little bit amusing if you took the trouble to at least claim that you've got direct access to the highest consciousness, but the more you continue to commit rhetorical suicide, the more pathetic your special pleading becomes.
Honestly, here is what you sound like: "This statement is true. The previous statement was false." Self-contradiction is in no way thought-provoking or consciousness-expanding or profound. You're just making a mockery of yourself. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gary 7.1
Skeptic Friend
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 20:39:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Good stuff, H., I was going to write much the same. Except I was going to focus more on the whole collection of statements that Gary has made that indicate he has no possible way to know that his "inner wisdom" is steering him in the right direction. If he really believes what he says, he can have no filters whatsoever with which to distinguish the true from the false. He really cannot tell if he's an evil snowmobile or not, because his own "experiences" and "common sense" may have been created through "mind control." Once you entertain such possibilities, it makes no sense to say that you're immune to their influences.
It would be really interesting to be nearby when Gary has his psychotic break. It'll either be the mildest snap in history, because he's already used to living in a schizoid hell, or he's going to take out a whole lot of people because any communications is a form of mind control. Well, that's assuming it hasn't happened yet - and we've had people here who've told us that they're off their medications who didn't sound very much different from Gary.
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Inner wisdom can lead oneself and others astray, but only after it becomes apparent that inner wisdom was actually inner delusion.
But who is to say they aren't one and the same thing or part of the same process and just means open-mindedness and being receptive to all possibilities.
Skeptics create self-imposed barriers to such things and think they are very clever.
What does astray mean? - if you are the devil then astray denotes enlightenment and another one has escaped from his evil grasp.
If you are an enlightened master you might say: "bad luck - you made a mess of that one, but you're at least on the right path and willing to consider all possibilities. Better luck next time!"
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Gary 7.1
Skeptic Friend
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 20:49:56 [Permalink]
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So we can conclude at least two things here. Gary, you are wrong about things of which you are unaware. And two, you have no way of determining what those things are, or even to what extent you are wrong. At this point, since you've been adrift for so long, we can surmise that the gap between your ideas and reality is likely quite large.
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But what if I'm right and know that I'm right - not from an egoistic and delusional stance, but an universal and objective one?
Have you considered that possibility and can you even begin to disprove it?
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| Edited by - Gary 7.1 on 08/28/2008 20:50:40 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 20:50:49 [Permalink]
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Hey, wow, you replied to me!Originally posted by Gary 7.1
Inner wisdom can lead oneself and others astray, but only after it becomes apparent that inner wisdom was actually inner delusion. |
How can you possibly tell the difference?| But who is to say they aren't one and the same thing... |
Yeah, see, you cannot tell the difference.| ...or part of the same process and just means open-mindedness and being receptive to all possibilities. |
Tell me how receptive you are to the possibility that you are an evil snowmobile, Gary.| Skeptics create self-imposed barriers to such things and think they are very clever. |
Not at all. You've just fabricated yourself a definition of "skeptic" and you refuse to be receptive to the possibility that you are wrong, thus demonstrating beyond all question that you cannot live to your own stated ideals.What does astray mean? - if you are the devil then astray denotes enlightenment and another one has escaped from his evil grasp.
If you are an enlightened master you might say: "bad luck - you made a mess of that one, but you're at least on the right path and willing to consider all possibilities. Better luck next time!" |
It's funny you should mention enlightenment, because I was just thinking that what you're doing, Gary, is getting the Zen all wrong.
Serious question, Gary: how many enlightened masters does it take to change a lightbulb? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gary 7.1
Skeptic Friend
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 20:57:40 [Permalink]
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Honestly, here is what you sound like: "This statement is true. The previous statement was false." Self-contradiction is in no way thought-provoking or consciousness-expanding or profound. You're just making a mockery of yourself.
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Well scientists struggle with the same problems - is light a particle or a wave? Do we mock them for being self-contradictory? Do we mock creation for being too complex for our tiny minds?
In a way, by becoming skeptics, we are mocking creation and ourselves. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 21:00:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gary 7.1
But what if I'm right and know that I'm right - not from an egoistic and delusional stance, but an universal and objective one? |
You cannot know that you are right, because you've indicated that there is always a higher state of consciousness in which you see the illusionary nature of the state(s) below. There can thus be no such thing as an objective reality, because there is no such thing as a highest state of consciousness.| Have you considered that possibility and can you even begin to disprove it? |
Well, I just did, now didn't I? And using your own ideas, to boot.
Your own statements, Gary, tell us all that there can only be egoistic and delusional points of view. There can be no solid ground, because whatever level of reality you're working on right now will be seen to be false once you attain the next-higher level.
The only question that remains is who is on the higher level now, Gary? You or us? The way you've set yourself up, you can't possibly know without redefining the meanings of every concept required to make the decision, at which point you invalidate your claim that you have attained objectivity. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gary 7.1
Skeptic Friend
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 21:04:10 [Permalink]
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| Tell me how receptive you are to the possibility that you are an evil snowmobile, Gary. |
Hell, yes! I even like the idea. Even if I request it be put on my tombstone it still doesn't make it true. |
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Gary 7.1
Skeptic Friend
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 21:10:00 [Permalink]
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evil snowmobile = devil's advocate
In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who takes a position, sometimes one he or she disagrees with, for the sake of argument. This process can be used to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure. |
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Shirley Maclaine & Kevin Ryerson
