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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 07/16/2007 :  21:52:13  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is this woo or science?

The Thunderbolts Project calls into question not only countless modern scientific assumptions, but also the billions of dollars of big-science government and corporate funding that continues to preserve and entrench questionable theories - elevating them to the status of doctrine - while systematically excluding legitimate alternatives that threaten the status-quo. Alternatives that may represent the future of science.




Electricity or Gravity?






What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell

Zebra
Skeptic Friend

USA
354 Posts

Posted - 07/16/2007 :  22:38:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Zebra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Is this woo or science?

...




Looks like woo.

Since you didn't provide a link or citation, I googled the start of the quote you provided, up popped the same lines from the global artist village news ("Featuring the Spiritual and Humanitarian Side of Art & Media, and more..."). It passes along a couple more astonishing claims (boldface added):
Challenge yourself, your peers, your teachers. Participate in a revolution in science and human evolution. Watch this film and in an hour ... all » [sic] know more than most NASA scientists about the fundamental force that forms and sustains the universe (summary below).


The Thunderbolts Project offers remarkably simple explanations for 'black holes', 'dark matter', the electric sun, comets that are NOT made of ice, planetary scarring and many other 'mysterious' phenomena.

It proposes that much of the currently observable phenomena of deep space can be intelligently explained by already known principles of electricity. High school students get it immediately. A doctorate in higher math is not required.


Get something for nothing. Understand in minutes what those overeducated scientists in their ivory towers don't even know. Yeah, those are the claims that seem to appeal to middle America.

Woo, woo

I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney

*some restrictions may apply
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 07/16/2007 :  22:46:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The question is: Is gravity or electricity the forming agent in the universe?

Magnetism which is caused by electricity is a much greater force than gravity.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular

Canada
510 Posts

Posted - 07/16/2007 :  23:36:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ghost_Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jerome do us all a favour - read the entire Micheal Mozina "Surface of the Sun" thread (all umpteen parts) and don't come back until you have read it all and understand the arguments.

Not only is this woo, it is old woo that has presented here by someone who is a hell of a lot more knowledgeble than you and actually does research his arguments.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King

History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms

"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler

"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/16/2007 :  23:42:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
but also the billions of dollars of big-science government and corporate funding that continues to preserve and entrench questionable theories - elevating them to the status of doctrine - while systematically excluding legitimate alternatives that threaten the status-quo.


That scores pretty high on the crackpot index.

And do what Ghost said, go read all the "surface of the sun" threads.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2007 :  06:03:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

but also the billions of dollars of big-science government and corporate funding that continues to preserve and entrench questionable theories - elevating them to the status of doctrine - while systematically excluding legitimate alternatives that threaten the status-quo.


That scores pretty high on the crackpot index.

And do what Ghost said, go read all the "surface of the sun" threads.





You define crackpot as the idea that the universe is structured by a very powerful force (electricity) not a very weak force (gravity)?

How many times has the scientific thought changed about the structure of the universe?

You are basically saying what ever the current model is this is the truth and anything outside this model is woo. This is not skeptical or based in past realities.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2007 :  06:45:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah. It's hard to evaluate anything when the only offering appears to be giving up an hour of my life to watch a video. I'd rather have something written out in a clear way, so I can read it at my leisure, being able to pause and follow up on important points when I feel the need.

But yes, Jerome, Mozina tried to argue in the million Surface of the Sun threads that electricity was the main power source of the sun, and not nuclear fusion.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2007 :  06:46:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am currently reading per your suggestion. It does not begin well for the skeptics with these attacks on the first page:

Pray tell what ideas of grandeur have given you this amazing skill?


I presume you were banned and started thread after thread because either you think it's fun to see people argue against your stupid statements or you are psychotic with ideas of grandeur and can't stop yourself from trying to convince the world of your secret powers. Take your lithium and or bizarre sense of humor and waste someone else's time. I won't post more responses than this one unless you want to be involved in a normal thread.



Burn a heretic anyone?


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2007 :  06:51:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

You define crackpot as the idea that the universe is structured by a very powerful force (electricity) not a very weak force (gravity)?
No, he's defining "crackpot" as any "science" that depends upon a conspiracy of repression more than it does evidence. I'll further say the Thunderbolts Project is crackpot because it appears to depend for evidence upon the superficial resemblance of ancient art to cosmological phenonena. And it's still more crackpottery to have had this project in the works for over two years and have little more to say than "buy our book!" and "buy our DVD!" Copernicus, Gallileo, Harvey, Newton, Einstein and Wegener: none of these people required a huge PR campaign to show that their revolutionary ideas were correct.

By the way, gravity is only the weakest force up to the scale of biological cells. At the scale of galaxies, gravity is dominant because most matter at such scales is electrically neutral.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2007 :  07:02:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jerome wrote:
I am currently reading per your suggestion. It does not begin well for the skeptics with these attacks on the first page:
You are just distracting from the main issue. If we are arguing about what 1+1 equals, I am just as right if I answer "2, jackass" as if I answer "2". So why don't you refrain from pointing out the insults in between and pay attention to the meat of peoples' arguments.


"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 07/17/2007 07:02:41
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13470 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2007 :  07:06:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jerome:
You are basically saying what ever the current model is this is the truth and anything outside this model is woo. This is not skeptical or based in past realities.

Dude did not say that anything outside the current model is woo. And a very proper application of skepticism is to question models that are outside very good theories. You also suggest that current models are not constantly tested. That is also untrue. All theories are held tentatively, and are subject to change or to be discarded if better explanations come along.

The catch is, a proposed explanation really does have to be better or it is shit-canned.

Crackpot Index

Any doofus or crackpot can propose a hypothesis. That doesn't mean that it isn't being skeptical to not immediately run back to the drawing board with it. It is up to the doofus to submit the new hypothesis for peer review. It is up to the crackpot to support his claim. It is not up to us to prove his claim is wrong or has merit. There are proper procedures that must be adhered to, that the crackpot thinks he is not subject to. And that is what makes him a crackpot. That and idiotic explanations largely based in a lack of understanding of the real science that the new explanation seeks to overthrow.

Pseudo science is all over the place. There is lots of it around. You asked if this explanation is possibly woo. The answer is yes.

The electricity hypothesis seeks to overthrow a theory that has a high rate of predictability and has been successfully tested in many ways. Our skepticism of this not so new hypothesis is exactly where our doubts should be placed…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2007 :  08:02:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Minor hijack, but I'm also re-reading the Surface of the Sun threads, and see right there on page 1 of the first thread that Mozina's crazed Z-axis idea in response to the whole density problem is right there. If only I'd seen that (or been aware of the ramifications) the first time!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2007 :  08:21:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Might as well link to the index for the Surface of the Sun threads.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13470 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2007 :  08:27:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jerome:
Is this woo or science?

And speaking of asking if this is woo, since you were prepared to not accept any answer that wasn't “science” this question really amounts to baiting. And what do you do with bait? You troll with it, right?

This is fairly typical of the motive behind many of your so-called questions.

And you wonder why you are perceived as a troll.



Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2007 :  08:59:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote

You define crackpot as the idea that the universe is structured by a very powerful force (electricity) not a very weak force (gravity)?


This is why you've been called a troll so many times. Being a crackpot isn't about what ideas are presented. It's about how they are presented. I don't care what your "research" is, if you start off by saying, "They laughed at Galileo..." or stating in some shape or form that scientists were wrong in the past, then I'm most likely not going to listen. Everyone knows these things, to state it as some deep thought that no one has ever heard of shows me probably more than anything else that they aren't worth listening to.

And you seem so desperately wanting to believe that we dismiss the theory because it disagrees with us, you make up shit misrepresenting what was said.

And in general, if you have a revolutionary scientific theory and you target it at people rather than the scientific community, then you are a crackpot.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 07/17/2007 09:03:00
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2007 :  09:44:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Electricity is so 19th century, I think the color force shapeed the universe.

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