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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  13:50:04  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message
I have asked this question of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Marilyn Vos Savant and many other brights, and I would like to address it to anyone on this forum that would care to respond. I am currently writing a monograph on this and other similar events of mass perception of apparently anomalous phenomena -religious visions, conjurors illusions, mass hallucinations or "mass hysteria" and the like - obviously my focus is not on individual narratives of unusual perceived events regardless of apparent credibility! I welcome your comments.

What is your view (better opinion) of the UFO phenomenon? I do NOT mean anything regarding little grey men, alien abductions, or "encounters" of any kind.I refer only to the small but significant number of highly documented sightings of UFO aerial phenomena reported by large groups of ordinary people, groups of professional military or police, sightings verified by multiple radar trackings, groups of military pilots or astronauts; and those cases thoroughly examined by Condon et al, Project Blue Book, and other serious investigations, and NOT rejected as hoax or hallucinatory.

bngbuck
bngbuck@roadrunner.com [/b]

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  14:04:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Welcome to SFN, bngbuck!

My opinion is that when a large number of people see something odd or unknown to them, they soon come up with a collective interpretation that fits their pre-existing world view. In a highly religious land, an unidentified sighting in the sky might be "seen" (and remembered with more and more detail thereafter) as an angel. In an area where people are more tuned to technology, the same sighting soon becomes a spaceship from another world.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  14:37:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message
TO HALF MOONER.....

THANK YOU FOR YOUR RESPONSE TO MY POST. HOW IS IT POSSIBLE FOR HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE TOTALLY UNKNOWN TO ONE ANOTHER TO "COME UP WITH A COLLECTIVE INTERPRETATION". IS IT THAT THEY HAVE MEETINGS AFTER THE EVENT, MEET, AND AGREE TO AGREE? OR ESP, PERHAPS? OR, EVERYONE READING THE SAME ACCOUNTS OF THE PHENOMENON SIMULTANEOUSLY LEARNING WHAT IT WAS THAT THEY SAW? I RESPECT YOUR REPLY.

BNGBUCK
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  14:49:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
If the witnesses are in a crowd, they almost certainly "meet" to discuss what they saw immediately. Or the rumor mill may forge many details later. But even this isn't required, as a common world view may cause a common interpretation.

(bngbuck, please don't use all caps. That makes a post hard to read.)


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/06/2007 15:00:20
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  15:00:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
First off, welcome to SFN bngbuck.

What I would like to see is a case where hundreds of people actually do agree on what they have seen.

Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable, however, tidbits can be taken from accounts and presented as evidence to support a claim that the accounts really were the same.

Also, what does “A Collective Interpretation” mean exactly? Does it mean that everyone who witnessed the event agreed on the details or simply that they all believed what they saw was a UFO, or something more specific?

One other thing. Is your cap lock stuck?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  15:06:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
Originally posted by bngbuck
HOW IS IT POSSIBLE FOR HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE TOTALLY UNKNOWN TO ONE ANOTHER TO "COME UP WITH A COLLECTIVE INTERPRETATION". IS IT THAT THEY HAVE MEETINGS AFTER THE EVENT, MEET, AND AGREE TO AGREE? OR ESP, PERHAPS? OR, EVERYONE READING THE SAME ACCOUNTS OF THE PHENOMENON SIMULTANEOUSLY LEARNING WHAT IT WAS THAT THEY SAW? I RESPECT YOUR REPLY.

BNGBUCK
How soon after the event were people interviewed? 5 minutes? The same day? Or over a period of months and even years, after several widely publicized accounts of the event?

It isn't at all surprising that people might change their stories to match what they think others want to hear. To this day far more people relate personal stories about Woodstock than could have actually attended the concert. The desire to be a part of something seen as significant is a pretty strong incentive to confabulate or embellish.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/06/2007 16:37:24
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  15:47:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message
HOW IS IT POSSIBLE FOR HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE TOTALLY UNKNOWN TO ONE ANOTHER TO "COME UP WITH A COLLECTIVE INTERPRETATION"


Hey i got an interpretation, maybe they're all telling the truth.

What are we talking about here anyway?


.I refer only to the small but significant number of highly documented sightings of UFO aerial phenomena reported by large groups of ordinary people, groups of professional military or police, sightings verified by multiple radar trackings, groups of military pilots or astronauts; and those cases thoroughly examined by Condon et al, Project Blue Book, and other serious investigations, and NOT rejected as hoax or hallucinatory.


where can I read case studies for these events you mention

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GeeMack
SFN Regular

USA
1093 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  16:39:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GeeMack a Private Message
Originally posted by bngbuck...

I have asked this question of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Marilyn Vos Savant and many other brights, and I would like to address it to anyone on this forum that would care to respond. I am currently writing a monograph on this and other similar events of mass perception of apparently anomalous phenomena -religious visions, conjurors illusions, mass hallucinations or "mass hysteria" and the like - obviously my focus is not on individual narratives of unusual perceived events regardless of apparent credibility! I welcome your comments.
Seems that conjurers' illusions fall in a different category than your other named phenomena. In the case of magicians' tricks, a person uses technical methods such as ruse, misdirection, optical illusion, sleight of hand, etc. to intentionally create the appearance of a very particular occurrence. Although the witnesses often have wildly differing notions as to the cause or method, they will generally agree that they have seen exactly the same thing. And there is no question as to the reason for this type of mass perception. It occurs by design and through the specific intent of the performer. Also, the idea of mass perception doesn't really apply because the illusion will appear the same to any observer, whether an individual or member of a larger group.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  16:48:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
Hi bngbuck. I'm perhaps not as familiar with the UFO scene as I should be. In your original post, you ask for opinion regarding
the small but significant number of highly documented sightings of UFO aerial phenomena reported by large groups of ordinary people, groups of professional military or police, sightings verified by multiple radar trackings, groups of military pilots or astronauts; and those cases thoroughly examined by Condon et al, Project Blue Book, and other serious investigations, and NOT rejected as hoax or hallucinatory.
Perhaps to help us out, you might reference some such incidents? I personally am unaware of a UFO being "reported" by groups of "professional military or police" or "sightings verified by multiple radar trackings." I'd be interested to read of news or official accounts of such things and give you my opinion, however.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  17:34:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

Hi bngbuck. I'm perhaps not as familiar with the UFO scene as I should be. In your original post, you ask for opinion regarding
the small but significant number of highly documented sightings of UFO aerial phenomena reported by large groups of ordinary people, groups of professional military or police, sightings verified by multiple radar trackings, groups of military pilots or astronauts; and those cases thoroughly examined by Condon et al, Project Blue Book, and other serious investigations, and NOT rejected as hoax or hallucinatory.
Perhaps to help us out, you might reference some such incidents? I personally am unaware of a UFO being "reported" by groups of "professional military or police" or "sightings verified by multiple radar trackings." I'd be interested to read of news or official accounts of such things and give you my opinion, however.

Don't answer that, bngbuck, it's a trick! These skeptic bastards will cut you off right in the mid

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  18:09:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message
Half Mooner....

The most striking examples of mass perception of UFOs consist of hundreds of observers dispersed over a wide geographical area - an entire large city, for example - not a cohesive "crowd" of people gathered together at one specific place.

Perhaps I can respond to the rest of your questions if you can explain more fully what a "world view" is, and what "collective interpretation" means. Read Kil's comment posted at 15:00 on 8/6/07.

My caps lock was on and I was writing rapidly and did not notice. Kil also objected to the all caps format. I am happy to disengage the caps lock even though I don't completely understan why it makes a post hard to read.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  18:22:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message
Kil...

I have not yet found examples where hundreds of people agreed in fine detail as to what they saw. I doubt if that is forthcoming. However, it is not quite as bad as the blind men and the elephant analogy. There have been numerous cases where large numbers of observers at widely disparate locations described remarkably similar phenomena.

You'll have to ask Halfmooner what "collective interpretation" means. It's his terminology, not mine.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  18:39:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message
H. Humbert (and Lolita, I presume)

In most of the reports that I have read, information has been collected over a period of days and weeks, not months or years.

Your comment regarding the need or desire for identification with a famous or unusual event is well taken. I am certain that this has happened to some degree in many, but probably not most of the reported incidents. Incidentally, in these kind of "mass sightings" a large percentage of the information was spontaneously volunteered, and recorded, not obtained by interview.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  18:48:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message
On Fire for Christ.....(try Kool Aid ??)

A simple method is to take several hours, Google UFO's,and proceed to sort the wheat from the chaff. You will quickly learn many ways to narrow your search. There is a considerable amount of printed material, some out of print and not referenced on the Internet, but this requires a substantive time investment in a large public library
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1884 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  18:58:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
A lot of people seeing the same thing? How about the Miracle of The Sun.

According to many witness statements, after a downfall of rain, the clouds broke and the sun appeared as an opaque, spinning disk in the sky[2]. It was said to be significantly less bright than normal, and cast multicolored lights across the landscape, the shadows on the landscape, the people, and the surrounding clouds[2]. The sun was then reported to have careened towards the earth in a zigzag pattern[2], frightening some of those present who thought it meant the end of the world.
Could this have actually happened? The fact that we are here answers that.

The ... solar phenomena were not observed in any observatory. Impossible that they should escape notice of so many astronomers and indeed the other inhabitants of the hemisphere… there is no question of an astronomical or meteorological event phenomenon …Either all the observers in Fatima were collectively deceived and erred in their testimony, or we must suppose an extra-natural intervention.
No miracle. Just a natural localized event for which we do not have a definitive explanation for.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2007 :  19:04:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
Originally posted by bngbuck

Kil...
You'll have to ask Halfmooner what "collective interpretation" means. It's his terminology, not mine.
I see. You are correct. My mistake.

Okay then. Let me answer your question as directly as I can using what I think is the best information we currently have for sure about ufo's.
bngbuck:
What is your view (better opinion) of the UFO phenomenon? I do NOT mean anything regarding little grey men, alien abductions, or "encounters" of any kind.I refer only to the small but significant number of highly documented sightings of UFO aerial phenomena reported by large groups of ordinary people, groups of professional military or police, sightings verified by multiple radar trackings, groups of military pilots or astronauts; and those cases thoroughly examined by Condon et al, Project Blue Book, and other serious investigations, and NOT rejected as hoax or hallucinatory.

I would say, in each case, that those people saw an unidentified flying object.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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