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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 08/26/2007 : 20:28:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Dude
Jerome (when did he get let back in?) is approaching this issue from the wrong direction anyway.
The proper question to ask of gun-control advocates is this: What evidence do you have that strict gun laws lower the rates of gun related crimes?
The answer is: None.
Crime rates have far more to do with poverty than almost anything else.
Gun control laws, gun bans, etc.. are a waste of taxpayer resources because they are demonstrably ineffective.
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Bingo.
If memory serves, Vermont has the least gun regulations. It also has the least gun related crime. It likewise has a high median household income.
Chicago, lost of gun crime, extreme gun control laws (no concealed carry, no private handgun ownership), and a lot of poverty.
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It sounds as if we are stuck with comparing apples to oranges. Those places are vastly different from one another in ways having nothing to do with gun laws.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/26/2007 20:29:55 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 21:36:30 [Permalink]
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Half, the comparison is somewhat valid. Gun control laws essentially have no effect on gun related crimes. Poverty is probably the most important factor in most crime rates.
You are never going to find two places that are identicle enough to compare, really. But if you look at areas that have high poverty rates, you will also find high crime rates. Regardless of what the laws concerning guns are.
Baza said:
Shows in table 2.4
rate of intentional homicides with firearm USA 3.25 per 1000
UK is 0.02 |
Compare the rates of all murder. I haven't looked at them recently, but from what I recall the UK is slightly lower than the US for murder, but not drastically so. And when you look at overall crime rate, there is very little difference at all.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Baza
New Member
United Kingdom
47 Posts |
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Baza
New Member
United Kingdom
47 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 15:54:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Dude
Jerome (when did he get let back in?) is approaching this issue from the wrong direction anyway.
The proper question to ask of gun-control advocates is this: What evidence do you have that strict gun laws lower the rates of gun related crimes?
The answer is: None.
Crime rates have far more to do with poverty than almost anything else.
Gun control laws, gun bans, etc.. are a waste of taxpayer resources because they are demonstrably ineffective.
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Bingo.
If memory serves, Vermont has the least gun regulations. It also has the least gun related crime. It likewise has a high median household income.
Chicago, lost of gun crime, extreme gun control laws (no concealed carry, no private handgun ownership), and a lot of poverty.
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It sounds as if we are stuck with comparing apples to oranges. Those places are vastly different from one another in ways having nothing to do with gun laws.
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All which drive crime or suppress it much more acutely than the status of gun laws.
Twas the point I was trying to make. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 20:01:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Half, the comparison is somewhat valid. Gun control laws essentially have no effect on gun related crimes. Poverty is probably the most important factor in most crime rates.
You are never going to find two places that are identicle enough to compare, really. But if you look at areas that have high poverty rates, you will also find high crime rates. Regardless of what the laws concerning guns are.
Baza said:
Shows in table 2.4
rate of intentional homicides with firearm USA 3.25 per 1000
UK is 0.02 |
Compare the rates of all murder. I haven't looked at them recently, but from what I recall the UK is slightly lower than the US for murder, but not drastically so. And when you look at overall crime rate, there is very little difference at all. |
Actually, Baza is off with the numbers a bit, but the interesting thing is this:
Overall homicide rate in the US, 2002: 5.6 per 100,000
Intentional homicide with firearm (same): 3.25
Difference: 2.35 homicides per 100,000 were not firearm murders.
Overall homicide rate in the UK, 2002: 2.03
Intentional homicide with firearm (same): 0.02
Difference: 2.01 homicides per 100,000 were not firearm murders.
In other words, the non-firearm murder rate was different by only 15%, while the firearm murder rate was over 160 times higher in the US.
Edited to add my point: Do the poverty rates in the two countries reflect this? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2007 : 21:26:41 [Permalink]
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This is where the talk should be, I believe. Second Amendment
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2007 : 04:59:15 [Permalink]
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Dave_W said:
| Edited to add my point: Do the poverty rates in the two countries reflect this? |
US poverty rate in 2005 was 12.6%
The UK, apparently, had a 22% for the same year. I am not sure that the same method/standards have been used for this as were used by the US census to determine poverty.
The UK report uses a seemingly simple measure of poverty, if you make less than 60% of the median income, you're poor. The US report has hundreds of pdf pages to describe the methodology and measure of poverty (which seems to boil down to a simple chart with "thresholds").....
SO that was a waste of 15 minutes... heh.
....
After another bit of time searching, I can't find any easily understandable data that looks like it makes a useful comparison between the US and UK for poverty.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2007 : 15:44:38 [Permalink]
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| Actually, now that I've thought about it more, a better place to start comparisons would be with the question of how the rate of solved firearm homicides compares to the rate of solved non-firearm homicides. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2007 : 16:04:10 [Permalink]
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US most armed country with 90 guns per 100 people
GENEVA (Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens, making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a report released on Tuesday said.
U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies.
About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year are purchased in the United States, it said.
"There is roughly one firearm for every seven people worldwide. Without the United States, though, this drops to about one firearm per 10 people," it said. |
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2007 : 21:05:23 [Permalink]
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Dude, you and I both know that the poverty line is a bullshit number taken out of the administrations ass to make themselves look good.
There have been several suggestions on adjusting the poverty rate up to a more reasonable number.
The number quoted for the poverty line was around $20,000/year for 2007. When I was working in 1999, I believe it was around $22,000. I'll have to do some more research on that. But the number has always been the government's plaything to fool the population into thinking they are doing better.
Several people have suggested the true poverty line should be closer to $40,000 which cranks the numbers somewhere near 35-40%. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gun Crimes Up After Ban?
