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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 18:16:03 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: | What is your point regarding Mother Teresa? Was she some kind of hero to you, or what? |
I made my stance on MT rather clear on the first page. But to repeat myself: I regard her as a religious eccentric whose masochism drove her off the path of true humanitarianism that so many people credit her for. That said, people who try to demonize her are spreading just as much distortion about her. In terms of judgments, I don't think of her as very good or very bad, just very bizarre. I'm sort of annoyed by the people who think she was such a great person, but hell, if their own misconstrued view of her as someone who helped the poor compells any people to actually help the poor, that's great. As for those who know what MT was really about and agree with it, hey, to each his own. If private institutions and citizens want to raise millions and spend it on religious institutions instead of alleviating poverty with medicine, shelter, education, and food, I don't see how I can criticize that given how much people in my own culture, including myself, spend on our hobbies, art, entertainment, and other material comforts.
| You believe in fear when you're paranoid. |
| What separates Mother Teresa from atheists is that she is lying to herself. She realizes she has no evidence of gods, gods do not speak to her, or intervene in her life, yet she outwardly portrays herself as a theist, and inwardly struggles with the idea that there is no basis for what she says outwardly. If what we were talking about wasn't religion, she would be called a liar. |
(Emphasis in bold mine.) The "crisis of faith" that MT wrote about wasn't about deducing through logic and empiricism that God doesn't exist and then being in denial of that, but you imply with the above line in bold.
What separates MT from atheists is that she believed in the theology of Catholicism, even if she didn't feel her faith for most of her life. Hey, sometimes I'm not feeling it when I force myself to do the right thing – does that mean I no longer believe in my own ethics and I'm a liar when I tell others to do what I think is the right thing?
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 18:17:25 [Permalink]
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How is that Christopher Hitchens claims in this interview about Mother Theresa that her order could have built a new medical teaching facility right after he said there'd never been an accounting of how much money her order had taken in? He really has no idea how much money comes in or what their expenses are yet takes the time to loft some accusations in Theresa's direction.
I'm also not convinced that the Time article is a clear indication that Theresa was an Atheist. Crisis of Faith, yes. If someone has something more compelling I would love to see it.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 18:19:50 [Permalink]
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| What separates MT from atheists is that she believed in the theology of Catholicism, even if she didn't feel her faith for most of her life. Hey, sometimes I'm not feeling it when I force myself to do the right thing – does that mean I no longer believe in my own ethics and I'm a liar when I tell others to do what I think is the right thing? |
I think this is a much more compelling explanation than penciling Theresa's name in the Team Atheist column.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 18:23:01 [Permalink]
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HITCHENS: Well, I have the testimony of a former very active member of her Order who worked for her for many years and ended up in the office Mother Teresa maintains in New York City. She was in charge of taking the money to the bank. She estimates that there must be $50 million in that bank account alone. She said that one of the things that began to raise doubts in her mind was that the Sisters always had to go around pretending that they were very poor and they couldn't use the money for anything in the neighborhood that required alleviation. Under the cloak of avowed poverty they were still soliciting donations, labor, food, and so on from local merchants. This she found as a matter of conscience to be offensive.
Now if that is the case for one place in New York, and since we know what huge sums she has been given by institutions like the Nobel Peace committee, other religious institutions, secular prize-giving organizations, and so on, we can speculate that if this money was being used for the relief of suffering we would be able to see the effect.
FI: So the $50 million is a very small portion of her wealth?
HITCHENS: I think it's a very small portion, and we should call for an audit of her organization. She carefully doesn't keep the money in India because the Indian government requires disclosure of foreign missionary organizations funds. |
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2007 : 18:27:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Gorgo wrote: | What is your point regarding Mother Teresa? Was she some kind of hero to you, or what? |
I made my stance on MT rather clear on the first page. But to repeat myself: I regard her as a religious eccentric whose masochism drove her off the path of true humanitarianism that so many people credit her for. That said, people who try to demonize her are spreading just as much distortion about her. In terms of judgments, I don't think of her as very good or very bad, just very bizarre. I'm sort of annoyed by the people who think she was such a great person, |
How do you see that as different from those who "demonize" her? She was either someone with some kind of a mental problem or a fraud. She is not the pop princess that she is made out to be. Why are those statements so terrible to you when you don't seem to worship her? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 18:37:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
HITCHENS: Well, I have the testimony of a former very active member of her Order who worked for her for many years and ended up in the office Mother Teresa maintains in New York City. She was in charge of taking the money to the bank. She estimates that there must be $50 million in that bank account alone. She said that one of the things that began to raise doubts in her mind was that the Sisters always had to go around pretending that they were very poor and they couldn't use the money for anything in the neighborhood that required alleviation. Under the cloak of avowed poverty they were still soliciting donations, labor, food, and so on from local merchants. This she found as a matter of conscience to be offensive.
Now if that is the case for one place in New York, and since we know what huge sums she has been given by institutions like the Nobel Peace committee, other religious institutions, secular prize-giving organizations, and so on, we can speculate that if this money was being used for the relief of suffering we would be able to see the effect.
FI: So the $50 million is a very small portion of her wealth?
HITCHENS: I think it's a very small portion, and we should call for an audit of her organization. She carefully doesn't keep the money in India because the Indian government requires disclosure of foreign missionary organizations funds. |
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So you see what I mean? He doesn't name the "active member of her order" and says there's been no accounting of how much it took in yet seizes on this $50 million figure as a statement of fact. I don't see this as a fact at all.
He also has no idea at all what her expenses are. Hitchens presents little that I can take as fact when it comes to the finances of Theresa's order. I need a lot more in the way of proof.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 19:25:24 [Permalink]
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@tomic wrote: | I think this is a much more compelling explanation than penciling Theresa's name in the Team Atheist column. |
Plus we don't want her. 
Gorgo wrote: | How do you see that as different from those who "demonize" her? She was either someone with some kind of a mental problem or a fraud. She is not the pop princess that she is made out to be. |
I can't say for sure she had a mental problem. I don't think eccentric or masochist automatically quality someone for mental illness. Also, you haven't described any actual fraud. Yeah, she took the money from Keating, but he had committed fraud, not her, and he was a man of great means regardless of his crimes. Had she given the money back, it would not have gone into the pockets of the people who were screwed by Keating.
| Why are those statements so terrible to you when you don't seem to worship her? |
What lovely choices you have given me. Worship MT or keep my mouth shut about her critics, even if they paint distortions and are extreme.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/27/2007 19:26:25 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 19:26:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by @tomic
Originally posted by Gorgo
HITCHENS: Well, I have the testimony of a former very active member of her Order who worked for her for many years and ended up in the office Mother Teresa maintains in New York City. She was in charge of taking the money to the bank. She estimates that there must be $50 million in that bank account alone. She said that one of the things that began to raise doubts in her mind was that the Sisters always had to go around pretending that they were very poor and they couldn't use the money for anything in the neighborhood that required alleviation. Under the cloak of avowed poverty they were still soliciting donations, labor, food, and so on from local merchants. This she found as a matter of conscience to be offensive.
Now if that is the case for one place in New York, and since we know what huge sums she has been given by institutions like the Nobel Peace committee, other religious institutions, secular prize-giving organizations, and so on, we can speculate that if this money was being used for the relief of suffering we would be able to see the effect.
FI: So the $50 million is a very small portion of her wealth?
HITCHENS: I think it's a very small portion, and we should call for an audit of her organization. She carefully doesn't keep the money in India because the Indian government requires disclosure of foreign missionary organizations funds. |
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So you see what I mean? He doesn't name the "active member of her order" and says there's been no accounting of how much it took in yet seizes on this $50 million figure as a statement of fact. I don't see this as a fact at all.
He also has no idea at all what her expenses are. Hitchens presents little that I can take as fact when it comes to the finances of Theresa's order. I need a lot more in the way of proof.
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Whether Mother Theresa had bank accounts or the church took the money, one thing is for sure, she generated a lots of it though donations to her order.
And yet, no medical hospitals, clinics, food distribution centers, and all of the things that could have been done were done in the areas where her order set up shop.
If she didn't have control over the money, she could at least have asserted her influence as a fund raiser for the church to help suffering people who didn't happen to be dying.
I'm not willing to give her a pass…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 20:05:37 [Permalink]
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| If she didn't have control over the money, she could at least have asserted her influence as a fund raiser for the church to help suffering people who didn't happen to be dying. |
Could you detail first how much she could have raised and then demonstrate that she was required to venture into projects beyond the scope of the one she already worked on?
| And yet, no medical hospitals, clinics, food distribution centers, and all of the things that could have been done were done in the areas where her order set up shop. |
How did you acquire this special knowledge of her order's spending? Can you share other details with us? You should certainly contact Hitchens so that he can site an actual source instead of relying on McCarthyistic innuendo. Your implication that she didn't do enough and needed to hold some sort of fundraiser to satisfy you is interesting. What else didn't she do enough of?
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 21:24:25 [Permalink]
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@:
Could you detail first how much she could have raised… |
No. But do you really doubt that it was a lot? She was Mother-Freakin-Theresa fer-Christ-sake. Much of this world famous saintly woman's time was spent fund raising. And no one questioned her goodness. It was just not cool to do that. After all, she tended to poor people…
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…and then demonstrate that she was required to venture into projects beyond the scope of the one she already worked on? |
Oh, you mean sending poor dead and brand new Catholics to heaven? Very time consuming that. I don't suppose she was required to do much beyond her calling. My problem with her is she could have.
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…McCarthyistic innuendo |
Don't make me laugh…
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Your implication that she didn't do enough and needed to hold some sort of fundraiser to satisfy you is interesting. |
I'll tell you what. If you think that Mother Theresa, and the myth of Mother Theresa are not worth examining, that's fine with me.
She did, by the way, hold plenty of fund-raisers. She certainly held enough of them to satisfy me.
I will also admit to having a bias where it comes to missionaries. And I suspect you have a Hitchens bias because of his politics. (I don't like his politics either.)
In any case, Mother Teresa is not off limits. Sorry, but making new Catholic's (even dead ones) is not a profession that I have a lot of respect for.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1310
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 21:35:13 [Permalink]
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Kil, why do you keep making these assumptions? I have no problem with anyone being critical of Mother Theresa. I simply ask that what's been said is fair. I don't think you have been.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2007 : 00:08:01 [Permalink]
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He also has no idea at all what her expenses are. Hitchens presents little that I can take as fact when it comes to the finances of Theresa's order. I need a lot more in the way of proof.
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Okay. I'm with you on that. That's fair. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2007 : 00:11:01 [Permalink]
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What lovely choices you have given me. Worship MT or keep my mouth shut about her critics, even if they paint distortions and are extreme.
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I'm following you better, but mental problems do not equate to mental illness. Religion itself is a mental problem.
I reiterate. The main problem with the story is that it seems to be used to illustrate that her misery is because of her religion, and that is a benefit of her religion, after years of being told that religion is a comfort, therefore a benefit of religion. There is no way out. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2007 : 07:50:22 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: | Religion itself is a mental problem. |
And this is probably the very heart of our disagreement.
| I reiterate. The main problem with the story is that it seems to be used to illustrate that her misery is because of her religion, and that is a benefit of her religion, after years of being told that religion is a comfort, therefore a benefit of religion. There is no way out. |
The reasons for religious belief vary from individual to individual. My argument is that MT strayed from real humanitarian action and stuck with the most extreme forms of Catholic theology that emphasize suffering and sacrifice as virtuous because she was personally obsessed with suffering. She was a masochist. Catholicism didn't make her a masochist, but it did allow her to openly act out her masochist obsessions while being viewed by others as virtuous. My problem with the Catholic church is that it has always been more interested in itself (its survival, theology, hierarchy and demographics of membership) than in the worldly needs of people. I could give a shit what Catholics themselves literally believe, and I do not think supernatural beliefs in-of-themselves compel people to do harmful or hurtful actions.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Crisis of Faith- Time Mag
