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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2007 : 11:08:14
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Transcendental meditation is being used in schools to alleviate the stress of students who live in poverty, starting in California, and now spreading to places such as Washington DC. I heard a great and short report on this on NPR's Day to Day that can be listened to here:http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=13972688
And here's an article in print with much of the same info: http://www.insidebayarea.com/opinion/tribune/ci_6493555
My initial concern is the cost of the trainers who make introducing TM rather expensive. David Lynch has set up a foundation to help pay to bring TM to schools. However, it seems there is some scientific credibility to TM's power to de-stress. This is quoted from the print article:
| Scientists at the University of Massachusetts established the effectiveness of meditation for reducing stress and anxiety in the 1980s. And recent studies at the University of California, Los Angeles, concluded that kids with attention-deficit and hyperactivity disorders showed clear improvement in concentration and cognitive abilities after learning techniques similar to those used at the Oakland school. |
I went to Wikipedia and it seems there's been a lot of scientific research done into TM with various results, some contradicting each other: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_meditation
I couldn't find any studies done of whether kids learning TM formally in schools would help with stress, behavior, and ultimately academic performance, but seeing as TM has some credibility and our urban public schools are so bad off, it seems worth trying out and studying further.
Enter the radical secularists with their slippery slope arguments, so paranoid of all things that even hint at religion that they shirk off the details of what is really happening. Also from the print article:
| "It's not the business of schools to lead kids to inner peace through a spiritual process," says Edward Tabash, chairman of the national legal committee for Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. Tabash, a self-described secular humanist, predicts an imminent court battle. |
*sigh*
While TM does have religious roots and is used explicitly for religious purposes in many contexts today, that is clearly NOT how it is being used in public schools. I recommend listening to the NPR report which profiles a school in DC using TM. It was introduced by the now principal, who started using TM in secret while he was a teacher. At the end of the report he's asked about the separation of church-state issue, and he laughs and says "I'm a Baptist. My wife's a Baptist. I believe in one God."
The idea that TM - as it is being implemented right now - violates separation of church and state surely is laughable.
Another great quote from Tabash: | "I can quite frankly see a coalition between religious fundamentalists and atheists challenging this." |
Indeed. 
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Edited by - marfknox on 08/27/2007 11:11:02
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 11:45:50 [Permalink]
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| Is there any evidence that Transcendental Meditation is better at relieving stress and anxiety than any other sort of meditation? A search of Medline reports 257 articles matching "transcendental meditation," but 1,363 matching just "meditation." If there's a wholly secular substitute, then why not use that? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 12:05:58 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | If there's a wholly secular substitute, then why not use that? |
I'd argue that this implementation of TM is wholly secular.
I don't know why TM in particular has developed into such a movement with so much financial support. Lynch has raised a good amount of money for this project. So my answer to your question is: because TM already has huge support and momentum, and it is being used in a secular manner. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Yojimbo99
New Member
USA
33 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2007 : 12:50:04 [Permalink]
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So $625 dollars per student to learn to be quiet? And part of that money goes back to this loon's college?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maharishi_Mahesh_YogiThat offers a a Phd in Maharishi Vedic Sciences...
“My Vedic Science not only includes within its range all knowledge about everything in the universe, and not only gives the student intellectual understanding, but also gives him the spontaneous ability to know anything, do anything, and accomplish anything. It actually enlivens infinite Creative Intelligence in the simplest form of his awareness, and makes him spontaneously live all possibilities and fulfillment in his daily life.” — Maharishi
http://www.mum.edu/cmvs/phd/
What ever happened to keeping a journal, creative writing, or even an art class. There is alot of ways to better the poor urban education systems we have in this country and I do not think TM is some magic bullet, there is serious poverty issues, teachers that are just waiting to retire and could give two shits about teaching( or themselves are afraid to discipline a class from fear of resprisals from students, teachers or parents). Maybe I am just a bit too cynical on this, but I'm smelling something foul and feel the need to grab my hip waders..
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It's not so much wanting to die, but controlling that moment, choosing your own way. - GG Allin
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| Edited by - Yojimbo99 on 08/27/2007 12:51:02 |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 13:21:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Yojimbo99
...What ever happened to keeping a journal, creative writing, or even an art class... |
Yes. Or if they really want Transcendental Meditation, could they work in some Mozart with it?
Personally, if they wanted to develop a non-traditional offering for low-income students, maybe a kind of pragmatic-yet-philosophy course titled "Learning How to Learn" would be good. Seriously, learning how to learn was the greatest thing I ever learned, and it wasn't directly taught to me in those days. 
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 13:30:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
I'd argue that this implementation of TM is wholly secular. |
I couldn't say. There's not enough in that article to really say what's being taught, except that a handful of people don't object to it (while the courts already have). Thus went Intelligent Design in Dover, initially. Wasn't the statement read to the kids in Pennsylvania "wholly secular," too?| I don't know why TM in particular has developed into such a movement with so much financial support. |
Because of the cult of personality behind it. Wikipedia doesn't seem critical enough.| So my answer to your question is: because TM already has huge support and momentum... |
Given what else many TM practitioners believe, "huge support and momentum" are the most terrifying reasons for using it in school.| ...and it is being used in a secular manner. |
As I said, I haven't seen enough about the project to make such a determination. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 14:04:09 [Permalink]
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| So $625 dollars per student to learn to be quiet? |
The money goes to pay trainers who come in to the school and work with the students. My only concern is whether or not the technique would get any positive results.
| And part of that money goes back to this loon's college? |
Some of the stuff on there is phrased in such a way that it is obviously non-literal, and rather, means to be poetic, flowery, or transcendent language. Indeed much of this is woowoo, but we're not talking about sending kids to a Maharishi school, we're talking about whether or not this specific technique of TM - as taught by the paid trainers - would get any positive results in the students that would be worth the investment. | What ever happened to keeping a journal, creative writing, or even an art class. There is alot of ways to better the poor urban education systems we have in this country and I do not think TM is some magic bullet, there is serious poverty issues, teachers that are just waiting to retire and could give two shits about teaching( or themselves are afraid to discipline a class from fear of resprisals from students, teachers or parents). Maybe I am just a bit too cynical on this, but I'm smelling something foul and feel the need to grab my hip waders. |
Anyone who thinks TM is a magic bullet is fooling themselves, but the NPR report didn't make it sound that way at all. I think the only people who regard TM as such are the big TM fanatics like David Lynch. But if he and a bunch of other people want to raise money so kids can have a quiet, meditation during school, what is wrong with that?
Poverty is, of course, the issue. Not just the poverty of the students' families, but the poverty of the schools themselves - that's how art, music, and sports get cut from a lot of schools in the first place. I don't think he does any good to smear the teachers. If you were put in a classroom with far too many students, many with emotional problems and family problems, and given little support, you'd be just "waiting to retire" too. I've watched bright, idealistic and compassionate teachers turn into monsters under the pressure of teaching 40 unruly kids day after day. And given that suburban school systems usually pay more, a lot of the people who stay in the city schools do so out of a greater sense of compassion and social responsibility.
There are two issues here. The first is whether or not TM should be used in public schools based on its proven merits or lack thereof. The second is whether or not TM can be be used in public schools without violating church and state separation.
The more I read about this the more fascinating it becomes to me, because this seems to be one of those truly gray areas where the definition of religion is questioned. As far as I can tell, TM has no specific beliefs. It claims to be beneficial, but doesn't, as a practice, offer specific results. Sure, Maharishi seems quite the woo and founds colleges of Vedic Medicine and likes to mention science and God a lot, but it seems more like for the sake of being universalist, not literally or logically accurate. It throws the word "spiritual" around a lot, but there are atheists and agnostics who apply that word as well. It isn't exclusive since everyone from Jewish Rabbis to Catholic priests are finding TM compatible with their own religions. The ones who complain do so because they say the "God" of Maharishi is too impersonal. I'd argue that when Maharishi says "God" he means something truly universalist - a poetic concept, not a concrete being as Christians, Jews, and Muslims typically regard God. And the "medicine" Maharishi pushes doesn't deny the usefulness of traditional medicine or discourage its use. From here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maharishi_Vedic_Medicine | Maharishi Vedic Medicine is a so-called alternative medicine and aims at being a complementary system to exist alongside modern, western medicine. |
So my question is: Can a practice that is truly universalist (meaning that it can be used by people of any belief system) be meaningfully regarded as a religion?
Wikipedia had a good few paragraphs on that particular controversy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_Meditation#Transcendental_Meditation_controversies
Relationship to religion and spirituality
Controversy exists as to the relationship the Transcendental Meditation technique has to religion. Official Transcendental Meditation websites state that the TM technique is a mental technique for deep rest and for contacting what is described as a field of unlimited potential. These sites state that the TM technique does not require faith, belief, or a change in lifestyle to be effective. [7]
On the other hand, Maharishi calls Transcendental Meditation "a path to God," [55] and in his teaching often makes references to "God" or a creator. [56] Transcendental Meditation program websites seem to indicate Maharishi makes no references to the TM technique as a religious practice, although he does describe himself as a spiritual leader. Kelly Zellers and Pamela Perrewe in their discussion of “The Role of Spirituality in Occupational Stress and Well-Being,” in Handbook of Workplace Spirituality and Organizational Performance, describe meditation, yoga, and the TM technique, one form of meditation mentioned, as spiritual and describe all three as coping strategies people may employ in business and in life in general.[57]
Clergy have opposing views when assessing the compatibility of their religions to the TM technique and programs. Cardinal Sin, Archbishop of Manila, believes as he outlines in his 1984 pastoral statement, that the TM perspective conflicts with Christianity. For example, unlike the Christian idea of God - a personal god caring for every individual – Cardinal Sin understands the inner reality one reaches through the TM technique to be impersonal. Man, as described by TM philosophy, is capable of increasing levels of perfection, but is not considered born in Original sin, a foundation of Christian doctrine. Pain and suffering as redemptive, another foundation of much Christian thought, is lacking in TM theory. Cardinal Sin also noted the belief that mantras used in TM are apparent invocations to deities. No information on mantras exists on official TM web sites, probably because the selection of mantras is private. Information as to which mantras are used in the TM technique is controversial.
At the same time, some clergy find the TM technique to be compatible with their religious teachings and beliefs. These include Rabbi Allan Green who finds Transcendental Meditation and its philosophy to provide insight into his work as a rabbi, [58] and Rabbi Raphael Levine who discovered that TM theory contains many of the same insights found in the teachings of Hebrew Prophets.[9] Father Adrian Smith, a Catholic priest, describes Transcendental Meditation as compatible with any religion because of pertinence to human nature rather than to religious virtue.[59] Father Basil Pennington, a Cistercian monk, believes that the deepest self described by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi as the Absolute is known to Christians, and is the same as "our God of love, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”.[60]
An early controversy on the use of the Transcendental Meditation technique in the schools arose in 1979, when the United States Third Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the lower court decision in Malnak v. Yogi (592 F.2d 197) that a curriculum in the Science of Creative Intelligence, which included the Transcendental Meditation technique, could not be taught in New Jersey public schools because it violated the Establishment Clause[61] of the First Amendment, which creates a wall of separation between church and state.[62] The lower court based the ruling in part on the brief puja ceremony involved in Transcendental Meditation instruction (though an appellate judge disagreed[63]) and also on the fact that the Science of Creative Intelligence dealt with issues of ultimate concern, truth, and other ideas analogous to those in well-recognized religions. Because the ruling centered around a curriculum in the Science of Creative Intelligence, and because the Wallace v. Jaffree decision in 1986 allows for quiet time/meditation with a secular purpose, instruction in the Transcendental Meditation technique has continued in public charter schools, despite comments like those of sociologist Barry Markovsky, who felt that in teaching the Transcendental Meditation technique in the schools, there might be an undercurrent of religion. He labeled this as “stealth religion."[64] [65] Principals of public charter schools, Nataki Talibah Schoolhouse in Detroit and the Fletcher-Johnson School in Washington, D.C., note that in their views the TM technique is not religious. They point out the benefits of the technique, one of which is to help to relieve stress in their students. |
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 14:35:16 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | I couldn't say. There's not enough in that article to really say what's being taught, except that a handful of people don't object to it (while the courts already have). Thus went Intelligent Design in Dover, initially. Wasn't the statement read to the kids in Pennsylvania "wholly secular," too? |
The difference here, and I think this is a key difference when talking about the church-state separation issue, is that the people pushing TM are not part of any organized religion. All of the supporters of ID in the Dover case were conservative Christians. It was clear in that case that they were dressing up their religious motivations with secular language.
| Because of the cult of personality behind it. Wikipedia doesn't seem critical enough. |
I think I agree with you about Wikipedia not being critical enough. Although this doesn't fit the mold of dangerous cults. It doesn't require that members avoid their family and friends, only read certain materials, or even change their lifestyle. It is clear that a lot of the TM leaders literally believe that TM has the power to make specific positive changes to the natural world without evidence, and religious or not, that is the antithesis to critical thinking and has no business in public schools. The problem is that I can't find enough info to know if it is being used in the public schools for anything other than simple focus and stress relief.
| Given what else many TM practitioners believe, "huge support and momentum" are the most terrifying reasons for using it in school. |
I can't feel this way at all. I'm not just convinced that the mainstream public would allow "what else many TM practitioners believe" to be taught to the kids.
| As I said, I haven't seen enough about the project to make such a determination. |
I'm starting to agree. Here's info on the court ruling: http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/tm.html
| The 1977 court ruling, Malnak v. Yogi, dealt a serious blow to the movement. TM appealed to the New Jersey State Supreme Court claiming they were not teaching religion, but proven scientific techniques. The Supreme Court upheld the initial decision in a 1979 ruling. After several years of steady growth, this same time frame marks the beginning of a decline in the number of new initiates to the meditation program. In spite of vigorous protest against claims that TM is a religion, Bainbridge notes it is not mere coincidence that it is during this period that the organization took new initiatives that focused on "supernormal powers." |
I think they shot themselves in the foot with the whole flying/levitation stuff. When they keep the language vague or over-the-top it can be seen as transcendant, and more like art mixed with philosophy than religion. But as soon as they start claiming special powers it really crosses over into the realm of religion. I'm not convinced that most TMers actually believe the most wacky claims in a literal sense.
I'm still not entirely convinced that this violates church and state, and I do not like the slippery slope arguments used by the AU that this will lead to other religious groups pushing for their practices to be used in public schools. I don't think it violates the spirit of church-state separation. However, I'm more and more convinced that it is money wasted and I'm getting persuaded by the idea that too many people will think TM is doing more good that it actually is, and thus be less motivated to make other changes to the public school system that are harder, but do more good. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/27/2007 14:38:30 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 14:45:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
So my question is: Can a practice that is truly universalist (meaning that it can be used by people of any belief system) be meaningfully regarded as a religion? |
Change "transcendental meditation" to "auditing" throughout this thread and see if it makes any difference to you.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 14:58:43 [Permalink]
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More later, but a quick note:From that page:On TM's official webpage, the TM technique is described as "a simple, natural, effortless procedure whereby the mind naturally arrives at the source of all thought-- transcending consciousness --the source of all creative processes." To me, that's clearly a religious belief. Now, these folks want to just teach the technique, without the religious goal behind it. It's like teaching kids to kneel and put their hands together, palm-to-palm, without calling it "praying."
Is there any other religious practice that's been stripped of its religious foundations and is now being taught in public schools? I can't think of any, but then I'm not an expert on the history of rituals. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 15:11:21 [Permalink]
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In response to Dave: Yeah, changing TM to auditing makes a huge difference. For one, Scientology is explicitly a religion with a very specific set of beliefs.
For another, I can't find any scientific studies of the effectiveness of auditing for reducing stress. TM on the other hand has been studied extensively. What is the argument against all of the studies mentioned just in the Wikipedia article under Research on the Transcendental Meditation technique:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_meditation#Research_on_the_Transcendental_Meditation_technique |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/27/2007 15:12:13 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 15:15:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
It's like teaching kids to kneel and put their hands together, palm-to-palm, without calling it "praying." |
Exactly what I was thinking.
There have been some studies which have shown meditation can relieve stress and increase concentration--but no more so than listening to relaxing music or napping in a hammock. Woo-woos might think meditation is better, but that's what makes them woo-woos. And so no, I see absolutely no reason why this questionable practice with clearly religious overtones should to be taught to children.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 15:22:15 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | To me, that's clearly a religious belief. |
I have the total opposite response. No religious terminology is used. I transcend consciousness almost every time I make art. It's also referred to as working intuitively, and there's nothing supernatural about it. Not sure if these guys mean it that way, but frankly, I don't see how this quoted paragraph means much of anything specific. It seems much more open to interpretation, which reminds me, again, of poetry.
| Now, these folks want to just teach the technique, without the religious goal behind it. It's like teaching kids to kneel and put their hands together, palm-to-palm, without calling it "praying." |
Well, if the kids were in that position and doing it under a modern, secular direction, then it isn't religious praying anymore. Then it's more like when I get a tear in my eye listening to Johnny Cash sing "Spiritual" (a Christian song) even though I don't believe in a literal Jesus. Or when I send holiday cards even though I don't care about Jesus's birthday.
| Is there any other religious practice that's been stripped of its religious foundations and is now being taught in public schools? I can't think of any, but then I'm not an expert on the history of rituals. |
Any generic "holiday" celebrations in December, such as a winter concert or making decorations for evergreen trees. Also, as part of multicultural education, students often create or color various types of religious ritualistic objects, such as menorahs. Other than that we don't really champion cultural traditions in the USA, but I wonder if other countries with greater value for cultural heritage do more. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 15:28:33 [Permalink]
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Humbert wrote: | There have been some studies which have shown meditation can relieve stress and increase concentration--but no more so than listening to relaxing music or napping in a hammock. |
Funny you mention napping...
| A paper published in 2001 in the journal Intelligence reported the effects on 362 Taiwanese students of three randomized, controlled trials that used seven standardized tests. The trials measured the effects of the Transcendental Meditation technique, a contemplative meditative technique from the Chinese tradition, and napping, on a wide range of cognitive, emotional and perceptual functions. The three studies ranged in time from six months to one year. Results indicated that taken together the Transcendental Meditation group had significant improvement on all seven measurements compared to the non-treatment and napping control groups. Contemplative meditation showed a significant result in two categories, and napping had no effect. The results included an increase in IQ, creativity, "fluid intelligence, field independence, and practical intelligence. |
This is from the Wikipedia article on TM I just linked to in my last post.
Unfortunately the journal Intelligence doesn't publish its articles online, but it is a reputable journal: http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/journaldescription.cws_home/620195/description#description |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Yojimbo99
New Member
USA
33 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2007 : 18:15:33 [Permalink]
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Here's some stuff…
Ruling of the United States District Court
| Transcendental Meditation was ruled a religion by the United States District Court, District of New Jersey, Docket No. 76-341 (H.C.M.) Civil Action, in the case of Alan B. Malnak. et al., Plaintiffs, v. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, et al., Defendants, in a summary judgment issued October 19, 1977, followed by an order and judgment, filed December 12, 1977. |
From this site:
Behind the TM Facade.
And from this site we get a scientific lowdown on TM.
In scientific terms it is said that there is a ground state, a unifield field, a quantum mechanical ground state, which itself is unchanging, but from which all material manifestations come. Transcendental Meditation practitioner and physicist Dr. John Hagelin refers to this unified field as ‘pure consciousness,' from where all manifested creation comes. We can refer to this unified field from the perspective of a quantum mechanical vacuum state from where all relativity comes, or from a field of pure undifferentiated consciousness; that field of pure Being that permeates everything; that omnipotent, omniscient field of divine consciousness that gives rise to creation from within itself; that field of all possibilities, the home of all the laws of nature; that divine will, the will of God.
Fortunately, due to the Holy Tradition of India's lineage of great Masters the special technique for attaining this inward absorption with one's inner Self has been preserved. The latest in this tradition was His Divinity Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, Jagadguru, Bhagwan Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math, Himalayas. He gave the technique for achieving the integration of life to his most revered disciple, His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. It was Maharishi who has envisioned spiritually regenerating the world and has, over the last fifty years, spread this knowledge throughout the world under the term Transcendental Meditation program, and its advanced form the TM-Sidhi program.
The Transcendental Meditation (TM) technique is a simple procedure whereby every individual can directly experience that universal divine truth common to all religions, be it Hinduism, Buddhism, or Christianity, or any religion. |
This is good:
Transcendental Meditation & The Brain: Maharishi University A very enlightning video…
I have a slightly used mantra to sell if anyone is interested…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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AU's Beef w/ Transcendental Medidation in Schools
