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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 08/30/2007 : 07:05:16
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Creationists always scream that there are gaps in the fossil record, and claim that these disprove evolution. Each time such a gap is filled by science the same Cretins immediately holler, "Now there's two gaps where once there was just one!"
Okay, nothing new there for you sophisticated bastards.
But I've been thinking (as many of you may note, usually a dangerous thing for me to attempt). Stealing the term "design," from ID, but using it as an analogy, it occured to me that many of the undiscovered "missing links" may never be found simply because they lasted a very short time -- due to their crummy "design."
Think now of many inventions that have been repeatedly promoted, yet have never become commonly used. For all my life, I've been reading popular science articles about the latest flyable car, or drivable airplane. These seem to be invented afresh every six months or so. problem is, they are always both terrible cars, and horrible aircraft. (The toilet/dishwasher is another such example, as is the aquarium/television and the microwave/incubator.)
I think the like must happen in the evolution of transitional species. A walking fish must have seemed a wonderful "invention" at the time, but it was probably both a lousy fish and a shitty walker. Its potential niche was limited. If it survived at all, it should have come under tremendous selective pressure to either evolve to walk (and run!) properly, or to get some decent swimming gear once again and just swim like its ancestors. Yet even so, we've finally found fossils of walking fish.
(Amphibians such as frogs, however, do have an ideal niche in seasonal ponds.)
The ancestors of the cetaceans must have been under the same kind of pressures. There must have been a point where they could neither out-swim sharks, nor run for safety on the beach.
A transitional hominid midway between a knuckle-walking ape and an erect early human would also seem like a crummy design. I would think that the awkward intermediate would be pressured to either go back to pure knuckle-walking, or get on with efficient, upright bipedal walking.
So it seems to me that there may be a natural principle of half-assed design that may forever make some of the most dramatic transitional fossil species very difficult to find, simply because they were awkward, neither-fish-nor-fowl models, and weren't around long.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/30/2007 07:09:46
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recurve boy
Skeptic Friend
Australia
53 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2007 : 07:43:06 [Permalink]
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I disagree.
If you read the thread linking to the mathematical proof that evolution would work assuming that all mutations are neither beneficial or detrimental, you'll see that a population will soon reflect how appropriate or inappropriate a particular set of genes is.
Now fossilisation as I understand it, is hard. Conditions need to be right. So the bones we find will be of species that were successful, because more members of a species means more chance at fossilisation.
I guess some species may have evolved in high-fossilisation-chance areas, and we my get fossils of failed species. But then, wouldn't we also get more specimens of the successful species? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2007 : 07:48:03 [Permalink]
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Ichthyostega and Acanthostega are prime examples of 'twixt & 'tween evolutionary species, much to the YEC's disgust. It is thought that neither could walk on land very efficently, rather they sort of humped themselves along like an inchworm. They were much better suited to crawling about in the vegetation in ponds and lakes, but but did come ashore at least occasionally.
Damn, but I love the Devonian/Permian! That's where the real evolutionary action was!
Edited to toss in Tiktaalik roseae, which inspired AiG to wax fulsome and almost eloquent a couple of years ago.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 08/30/2007 08:07:50 |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2007 : 21:04:48 [Permalink]
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The whole 'transitional species' argument that creationists constantly drag out is perhaps the smelliest red herring in the whole 'debate'. If one understands evolution then the entire issue is moot, for the following reason: Every species that exists, has ever existed, or ever will exist, is a transitional species - transitional between what it was, and what it may become if evolutionary forces continue to work on it.
Discussion over. (Not meaning to be dogmatic or anything, but...  ) |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
| Edited by - The Rat on 08/30/2007 21:06:29 |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2007 : 23:27:02 [Permalink]
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| If one understands evolution then the entire issue is moot, for the following reason: Every species that exists, has ever existed, or ever will exist, is a transitional species - transitional between what it was, and what it may become if evolutionary forces continue to work on it. |
Which is, of course, irrelevant regarding the (non)existence of the transitionals creationists are talking about. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2007 : 04:58:23 [Permalink]
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Having thought this over a bit more after reading the great feedback, I want to mention that I didn't mean "transitional species" in the sense that Creationists use the term. I agree that all species are always in transition, and I should clearly, in hindsight, have used a different term.
I'm not sure what term to use, but "transitional species" indeed has too much Creationist baggage attached.
What I was mentally envisioning when I used that term, are species caught in the cusp of punctuated equilibrium, or very rapid evolution. Because they are rapidly evolving to adapt to a new niche, there would be even fewer of their fossils to be found than from species which are evolving more slowly, and have a more stable niche.
These species are in the awkward, neither-fish-nor-fowl position of the flying car. I still think this may largely explain why these particular species, the most flagrantly "smoking guns" of evolution, are especially hard to find in the fossil record.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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RichStrong
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2007 : 13:40:13 [Permalink]
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[font=Courier New][/font=Courier New]
I cordially invite you to visit my website to see my flying car project. http://www.strongware.com/dragon .
As far as I know, studies of human evolution usually focus on physical aspects and hardly ever study thought processes.
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RichStrong
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2007 : 15:22:39 [Permalink]
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By "thought processes", I refer to W. Grey Walter's THE LIVING BRAIN, wherein he writes about the demise of the dinosaurs:
"No shiver met the wintry blast, nor drop of sweat the sun."
He points out that the animal that most closely resembles humans is the horse, that also perspires (or lathers) to maintain the brain at a constant temperature. I suspect that evidence of development of the sweat system may be linked to hair systems, but I don't know if any remains have been found with or without hair. I wonder what an ancestral mother who was accustomed to hairy bodies would think when she saw that her newborn had no hair and exuded sweat?? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2007 : 22:29:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by RichStrong
He points out that the animal that most closely resembles humans is the horse, that also perspires (or lathers) to maintain the brain at a constant temperature. |
Most mammals sweat in order to maintain body temperature. Why skip other primates and go for the horse? What's his justification for that phylogenic leap?| I wonder what an ancestral mother who was accustomed to hairy bodies would think when she saw that her newborn had no hair and exuded sweat?? |
Why would you posit the existence of any such mother in the first place? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2007 : 07:34:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
| If one understands evolution then the entire issue is moot, for the following reason: Every species that exists, has ever existed, or ever will exist, is a transitional species - transitional between what it was, and what it may become if evolutionary forces continue to work on it. |
Which is, of course, irrelevant regarding the (non)existence of the transitionals creationists are talking about.
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Also because creationists consistently refuse to acknowledge transitional fossils that shown to them, they just stick their grubby fingers in their ears and chant nanananananana. They would probably even try to deny the very existence of the (very much alive) Monotremes, which have a reptilian pelvic girdle, lay eggs, but have fur or spines and provide milk for their young.
I rarely take them seriously anymore, they exist primarily as the butt of jokes. Attempts to insert their ridiculous crap into schools will be taken seriously and met with force, but the individuals themselves are such glaring examples of lying, obfuscating idiocy that they're walking talking parodies of themselves.
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Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 10/20/2007 : 12:09:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by The Rat
I rarely take them seriously anymore, they exist primarily as the butt of jokes. Attempts to insert their ridiculous crap into schools will be taken seriously and met with force, but the individuals themselves are such glaring examples of lying, obfuscating idiocy that they're walking talking parodies of themselves. |
How can you say that about the poor, defensless monotremes?  |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2007 : 23:43:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
Originally posted by The Rat
I rarely take them seriously anymore, they exist primarily as the butt of jokes. Attempts to insert their ridiculous crap into schools will be taken seriously and met with force, but the individuals themselves are such glaring examples of lying, obfuscating idiocy that they're walking talking parodies of themselves. |
How can you say that about the poor, defensless monotremes?
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OOOPS! Grammatical FUBAR, hoist on my own petard!  |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2007 : 23:54:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by The Rat
Attempts to insert their ridiculous crap into schools will be taken seriously and met with force, but the individuals themselves are such glaring examples of lying, obfuscating idiocy that they're walking talking parodies of themselves.
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And here at Respectful Insolence is a particularly vile example of their lying. They are now presenting a video of Cannibal and Serial Killer Jeffrey Dahmer claiming evilution made him do it.
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"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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The flying car and the walking fish
