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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2007 :  18:14:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump#Efficiency
Yeah, 1 KW of electricity doesn't make 3 KW of heat, it is moving 3 KW of already-existing heat.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2007 :  18:19:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by furshur

Dr. Mabuse said:
1KW electricity in makes 3KW worth of heat. While that is no magic, but a known process...

Huh? How do you turn 1 KW into 3 KWs?
I must be missing something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump#Efficiency
Heat pumps are way cool. But they don't really produce more than 100% efficiency. From your Wiki link:
Sometimes this is inappropriately expressed as an efficiency value greater than 100%, as in the statement, "XYZ brand heat pumps operate at up to 400% efficiency!" This is inaccurate, since the work does not make heat, but instead moves existing heat "upstream"; otherwise, this would be a perpetual-motion machine.
No violations of Laws of Thermodynamics are involved. On the other hand the practical effect for the consumer is almost as if they were magic devices.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2007 :  19:21:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

Excellent, 'mooner! Well done! I was going to look around a bit on him, but had to tear my BS detector down.

Turns out that it over-revved and floated a valve, knocking a hole in the piston and shutting it down in an acrid cloud of blue smoke.

I've ordered a .010 oversize piston from Wisco and will give the cylinder a clean-up overbore to fit it as soon as it arrives. While I'm waiting, I'll rebuild the valve train and rework the ports. Iskidarian makes a pretty hot camshaft and I'll install one.

Then, let's see some bullshit sneak past it!

The first thing I thought was; why am I reading this here and not in a scientific publication? And then BSD blew.






Fil,

You may want to contact NASCAR about a Talledega style restrictor plate for your BS detector or at least a rev limiter. Limits the possibility of blowing a gasket or torching a piston.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2007 :  19:59:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Originally posted by filthy

Excellent, 'mooner! Well done! I was going to look around a bit on him, but had to tear my BS detector down.

Turns out that it over-revved and floated a valve, knocking a hole in the piston and shutting it down in an acrid cloud of blue smoke.

I've ordered a .010 oversize piston from Wisco and will give the cylinder a clean-up overbore to fit it as soon as it arrives. While I'm waiting, I'll rebuild the valve train and rework the ports. Iskidarian makes a pretty hot camshaft and I'll install one.

Then, let's see some bullshit sneak past it!

The first thing I thought was; why am I reading this here and not in a scientific publication? And then BSD blew.






Fil,

You may want to contact NASCAR about a Talledega style restrictor plate for your BS detector or at least a rev limiter. Limits the possibility of blowing a gasket or torching a piston.
It's getting a copper head gasket, a titanium exhaust valve, and the best springs available, which will be shimmed to the correct at-rest tension. This will not only restore it to it's prime of many years ago, but with the Isky cam and port work, plus an S&S carb, it's top-end performance will be greatly enhanced in the bargain. I'm considering installing a nitrous oxide system, but I dunno. Do you think that might be overkill?

Besides, it's an old Shovelhead Harley, so restrictor plates & rev limiters are not an option, although it's not a bad idea for other, more delicate types.

I've borrowed a friend's BSD for the interim. It's a little slow and makes a pitiful squeaking noise when the cat's around, but it'll do unless we hit some really tough bullshit. Then I'll have to turn it off lest it gets damaged. Can't really afford to re-build two of 'em.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2007 :  05:47:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump#Efficiency


Yeah, 1 KW of electricity doesn't make 3 KW of heat, it is moving 3 KW of already-existing heat.
Okay.

If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular

Canada
510 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2007 :  07:34:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ghost_Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Originally posted by filthy

Excellent, 'mooner! Well done! I was going to look around a bit on him, but had to tear my BS detector down.

Turns out that it over-revved and floated a valve, knocking a hole in the piston and shutting it down in an acrid cloud of blue smoke.

I've ordered a .010 oversize piston from Wisco and will give the cylinder a clean-up overbore to fit it as soon as it arrives. While I'm waiting, I'll rebuild the valve train and rework the ports. Iskidarian makes a pretty hot camshaft and I'll install one.

Then, let's see some bullshit sneak past it!

The first thing I thought was; why am I reading this here and not in a scientific publication? And then BSD blew.






Fil,

You may want to contact NASCAR about a Talledega style restrictor plate for your BS detector or at least a rev limiter. Limits the possibility of blowing a gasket or torching a piston.
It's getting a copper head gasket, a titanium exhaust valve, and the best springs available, which will be shimmed to the correct at-rest tension. This will not only restore it to it's prime of many years ago, but with the Isky cam and port work, plus an S&S carb, it's top-end performance will be greatly enhanced in the bargain. I'm considering installing a nitrous oxide system, but I dunno. Do you think that might be overkill?

Besides, it's an old Shovelhead Harley, so restrictor plates & rev limiters are not an option, although it's not a bad idea for other, more delicate types.

I've borrowed a friend's BSD for the interim. It's a little slow and makes a pitiful squeaking noise when the cat's around, but it'll do unless we hit some really tough bullshit. Then I'll have to turn it off lest it gets damaged. Can't really afford to re-build two of 'em.






Carb?? Time to move into 21st Century, Filthy

My BSD has electronic fool injection, crank fired ignorance and a turbocharger with an adjustable waste gate to prevent over booswah.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King

History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms

"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler

"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2007 :  08:12:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump#Efficiency
Yeah, 1 KW of electricity doesn't make 3 KW of heat, it is moving 3 KW of already-existing heat.

True, but a science-illiterate science reporting journalist wouldn't know that, and think that 1KW of electricity produced 3KW of heat.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2007 :  18:41:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Originally posted by filthy

Excellent, 'mooner! Well done! I was going to look around a bit on him, but had to tear my BS detector down.

Turns out that it over-revved and floated a valve, knocking a hole in the piston and shutting it down in an acrid cloud of blue smoke.

I've ordered a .010 oversize piston from Wisco and will give the cylinder a clean-up overbore to fit it as soon as it arrives. While I'm waiting, I'll rebuild the valve train and rework the ports. Iskidarian makes a pretty hot camshaft and I'll install one.

Then, let's see some bullshit sneak past it!

The first thing I thought was; why am I reading this here and not in a scientific publication? And then BSD blew.






Fil,

You may want to contact NASCAR about a Talledega style restrictor plate for your BS detector or at least a rev limiter. Limits the possibility of blowing a gasket or torching a piston.
It's getting a copper head gasket, a titanium exhaust valve, and the best springs available, which will be shimmed to the correct at-rest tension. This will not only restore it to it's prime of many years ago, but with the Isky cam and port work, plus an S&S carb, it's top-end performance will be greatly enhanced in the bargain. I'm considering installing a nitrous oxide system, but I dunno. Do you think that might be overkill?

Besides, it's an old Shovelhead Harley, so restrictor plates & rev limiters are not an option, although it's not a bad idea for other, more delicate types.

I've borrowed a friend's BSD for the interim. It's a little slow and makes a pitiful squeaking noise when the cat's around, but it'll do unless we hit some really tough bullshit. Then I'll have to turn it off lest it gets damaged. Can't really afford to re-build two of 'em.






Only babies need a bottle.

Stick with the titanium heads and maybe try something a bit different. We can either make a new one out of an old Trans Am. Better yet, a Ford Pinto. You're not surprised when it blows up and it makes a neater noise.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2007 :  10:15:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

Dig this:

How this 12inch miracle tube could halve heating bills
Amazing British invention creates MORE energy than you put into it - and could soon be warming your home

It sounds too good to be true - not to mention the fact that it violates almost every known law of physics.

But British scientists claim they have invented a revolutionary device that seems to 'create' energy from virtually nothing.

Their so-called thermal energy cell could soon be fitted into ordinary homes, halving domestic heating bills and making a major contribution towards cutting carbon emissions.


Uh-huh... According to the article, they invented it yet don't know how it works. I will be very interested to see how huge the energy savings will be with this gadget in use.

When something looks too good to be true, it most likely is.

Emphasis mine.



[Moved to the General Skepticism folder - Dave W.]
Do you think the "secret catalyst" is a chemical reaction that adds heat? And the idea hat they do not know how it works is ridiculous. They know how they are fooling people.
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2007 :  10:45:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I looked at the ecowatts site and no where on the site did it say that the TEC produced more energy than it consumed.

What the web site did say was:
The Ecowatts Thermal Energy Cell (TEC) is an electrolysis based energy cell that converts electrical power into heat at an efficiency significantly greater than that of a conventional immersion heater. This is achieved without the consumption of additional fossil fuels. [my bolding]

Either the reported got it wrong or Ecowatts made the device seem better than it is. Either way they got some good press.





If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2007 :  12:07:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Carb?? Time to move into 21st Century, Filthy

My BSD has electronic fool injection, crank fired ignorance and a turbocharger with an adjustable waste gate to prevent over booswah.
Sounds like a good one Ghost, but I'm old, indeed into the codger & curmudgeon stage of life, and prefer to go with what has always worked for me in the past. Fuck the twenty first century; thus far, it sucks.

I'm a bit suprised that this marvelous whack-a-doodle hasn't generated more press. If there were anything to it, it would be trumpted from the rooftops, or so it seems to me. Could it be that they don't need any more suckers customers and are chilling it?
What the web site did say was:
The Ecowatts Thermal Energy Cell (TEC) is an electrolysis based energy cell that converts electrical power into heat at an efficiency significantly greater than that of a conventional immersion heater. This is achieved without the consumption of additional fossil fuels. [my bolding]
And so, they are still promising something for nothing, just not quite so much of it. I wanna see some peer-reviewed, test results from an independent lab. Extraordinary claims & so forth....

But wouldn't it be great if it were all true?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 10/02/2007 12:08:30
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Real Skeptic
New Member

United Kingdom
2 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2008 :  09:36:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Real Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's an awful lot of comment on this forum without much due diligence - that doesn't - skeptic it = plonker or paradigm police or reactionary.

You can find more information here:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Ecowatts_Thermal_Energy_Cell

The actual science has been tested at several universities and the excess heat has been confirmed - altough no actual theory seems to have been develeloped.

As for any violation of the first law of thermo dynamics - clearly the Potash, Catalyst and Water must be reacting in some way to to create excess heat - over and above the electrical input energy - so no physical laws need to be violated.

The company have been working on this for a number of years and I am exremely skeptical of those who make superficial critisisms of the technology without reviewing the evidence.

Clearly there are a number of people out there who like comfortable paradigms. We should be extremely skeptical of people who keep telling us to "bang the rocks together". Experimental evidence is what counts and Ecowatts have this on their side.

The proof of the pudding of course will be in the "heating" and we will need to wait and see whether their test tube experiments are commercially upgradeable but the evidence (remeber this word - evidence not opinion) suggests it will.

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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2008 :  09:54:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Real" Skeptic--there is already a term for those who are "skeptical of the skeptical," it's called "gullible."

Obviously the experiments will be the deciding factor. But considering the history of failure of such claims, tentative skepticism is warranted, and not indicative of a resistance to new knowledge or change. Being skeptical doesn't mean one dismisses the possibility of being proven wrong, as you seem to mistakenly assume.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2008 :  10:06:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Real Skeptic

There's an awful lot of comment on this forum without much due diligence - that doesn't - skeptic it = plonker or paradigm police or reactionary.
One of the latest questions in this old thread was whether the company itself claims more energy out than in, and looking at its site again, it does not. It only claims high efficiency, which doesn't in any way mean "excess heat." They let The Mail on Sunday report that the device releases more energy than is put into it (and the company seems to endorse that article), but so does the engine in my car if you ignore the energy stored in the fuel.
The company have been working on this for a number of years and I am exremely skeptical of those who make superficial critisisms of the technology without reviewing the evidence.
Where is the evidence to review? The company is being extremely tight with it.
Clearly there are a number of people out there who like comfortable paradigms.
When you've got nothing better to say, why not go ad hominem?
Experimental evidence is what counts and Ecowatts have this on their side.
Where, exactly, have you seen the experimental data?
The proof of the pudding of course will be in the "heating" and we will need to wait and see whether their test tube experiments are commercially upgradeable but the evidence (remeber this word - evidence not opinion) suggests it will.
Where is this "evidence" you speak of?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2008 :  13:59:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Umm, yeah. Lets see this evidence.

Also, the original article, as written, deserves a huge dose of scorn and ridicule. No system releases more energy than enters. Period. Chalk it up to sloppy writing if you want, but your absurd criticism of skeptics here is absurd.

So, again, if you have some evidence on this particular device, perhaps something that shows an increase in the efficiency of energy use in heating systems, lets see it.

From your link:
Ecowatts' researchers believe it taps into a previously unrecognised source of energy, stored at a sub-atomic level within the hydrogen atoms in water


Yeah. You'll need more than your proclamation and a link to a website stupid enough to publish that statement as anything other than parody.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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