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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2007 : 09:23:31 [Permalink]
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I agree with Chaloobi. Systems that are underfunded don't work very well, so it's not a valid argument to say that we'd be all be sitting next to homeless people who wet themselves. That just brings up two questions.
1) Why aren't we taking better care of homeless people?
2) Why are we underfunding public transportation to keep a system that's killing and bankrupting thousands? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2007 : 11:19:19 [Permalink]
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Gorgo brings up a good point. If we stop building freeway overpasses, what are all the homeless people going to sleep under?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 09/26/2007 : 11:33:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Gorgo brings up a good point. If we stop building freeway overpasses, what are all the homeless people going to sleep under?
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Since we've given them bridges to live under, and sidewalks to sleep on, can they really be called homeless? Since we ignore them, are they not free to do as they want? Haven't they made the choice to be poor and have pants full of urine? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/26/2007 11:34:00 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2007 : 11:58:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
If we stop building freeway overpasses, what are all the homeless people going to sleep under? |
Train trestles, like HalfMooner used to. Or was that filthy?  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2007 : 12:38:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by H. Humbert
If we stop building freeway overpasses, what are all the homeless people going to sleep under? |
Train trestles, like HalfMooner used to. Or was that filthy?
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One of us old guys. Worst I had to do was sleep in an SDS office for a few weeks.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 06:25:50 [Permalink]
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Interesting thought on the auto industry, it's almost like 'make work' to keep people busy and the economic wheels turning. If the whole world went to mostly light rail for people transportation, the reverberations through the world economy would be huge, from raw material suppliers up through parts manufacturers to assembly and material logistics. Boom. The efficiency of not having to make, maintain and replace all those cars that wear out over a 10 year period or so would mean millions of people with no work to do.
So, is this a make-work type thing? We don't need cars. Cars are wasteful. But millions of people depend on the industry for their livelyhood so we keep doing it? What would they do if they weren't making cars or supplying the engines of the auto industry with parts and materials? And what about road / parking maintenance and construction? What would they do? Sure, some would work on light rail, but the reasoning behind light rail is the vastly few resources ultimately required to keep it going... so many fewer people would be employed. |
-Chaloobi
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 08:03:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Interesting thought on the auto industry, it's almost like 'make work' to keep people busy and the economic wheels turning. If the whole world went to mostly light rail for people transportation, the reverberations through the world economy would be huge, from raw material suppliers up through parts manufacturers to assembly and material logistics. Boom. The efficiency of not having to make, maintain and replace all those cars that wear out over a 10 year period or so would mean millions of people with no work to do.
So, is this a make-work type thing? We don't need cars. Cars are wasteful. But millions of people depend on the industry for their livelyhood so we keep doing it? What would they do if they weren't making cars or supplying the engines of the auto industry with parts and materials? And what about road / parking maintenance and construction? What would they do? Sure, some would work on light rail, but the reasoning behind light rail is the vastly few resources ultimately required to keep it going... so many fewer people would be employed.
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I don't agree with your conclusion that "we don't need cars," as they do (per se) provide the best "random access transportation" in human history, despite their terrible side-effects. People just won't abandon cars so long as they are far the most convenient transportation. We need to get rid of those polluting and globe-warming side-effects by going electric, and for safety's sake, develop computer navigation and traffic control systems.
We also need to greatly expand mass transit, and make it better by addressing issues like the last few blocks at each end of a commute, and find a way for people on mass transit to be able to more conveniently do things such as grocery shopping.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 10:13:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
We don't need cars. |
Currently, yes, we do. Even in NYC, where nearly everyone walks and rides the subway, taking taxi cabs are a necessity for certain errands. You either need to own a car or pay someone who does to ride in theirs. Cars and other road vehicles accomplish tasks that no other mode of transport can.
And that's in a dense city environment. If you want to go fishing in a remote lake or camping in the mountains, a train just isn't going to get you there. So cars are vital. I truly don't understand how you can suggest otherwise.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 10:33:38 [Permalink]
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Again you're really speaking about the layout of our cities, much of which was done because of the automobile. No I don't think it's realistic at this point to redesign all our cities for maximum population density and abandon the suburbs just so we can use mass transit instead of cars. And even if they were laid out with some sense, you'd still have to have individual vehicles for freight, emergencies, luxuries, remote places, etc. But what I'm struggling with is when I step back and look at this industry, this mode of transportation, the design of our cities, one of the questions I can't avoid is "wtf?" The automobile is really a gluttonous indulgence we've wallowed in these last 100+ years.
Everywhere you look the buzz concept du jour is efficiency. Without efficiency your company can't compete and will go out of business. The government "can't do anything right" (from health care to education to the military) because it's supposedly inherently inefficient. One of the best ways to reduce pollution is energy efficiency. On and on the efficient way is the best way to do everything. Except individual transportation, apparently.
A thought - the auto is efficient in delivering person X from point A to point B in a short time, in most cases. It's not material, labor or energy efficient, but it IS time efficient. It depends on the aspect of efficiency you value. Point taken. |
-Chaloobi
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 10:59:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
A thought - the auto is efficient in delivering person X from point A to point B in a short time, in most cases. It's not material, labor or energy efficient, but it IS time efficient. It depends on the aspect of efficiency you value. Point taken.
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Bingo. Cars are the most convenient.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 13:11:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by chaloobi
A thought - the auto is efficient in delivering person X from point A to point B in a short time, in most cases. It's not material, labor or energy efficient, but it IS time efficient. It depends on the aspect of efficiency you value. Point taken.
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Bingo. Cars are the most convenient.
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In most cases. At some point though we're going to have to re-evaluate the cost/benefit of that convenience. And in the end, it really is horribly wasteful - convenience often is. Imagine the resources wasted this way put to some other endeavor.... Our anscenstors are going to ask that question some day - something like: "why didn't you guys colonize Mars instead of building generation upon generation of automobiles." |
-Chaloobi
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 18:30:40 [Permalink]
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| 2.5 cars per person, or whatever we have at this point, is the most convenient NOW. That's because that's what we pay for now. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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