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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2007 : 08:33:14 [Permalink]
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Here's another take on that:
Now, I know what he's trying to say here. He wants to say that if atheists had the influence that a religious lobby had, atheism could be much better accepted. But that's not what he said.
The group he is referring to is not a Jewish lobby, but a pro-Israeli lobby. There's a difference, even if all the members of the latter are Jewish. Many Jews, religious or not, do not think that everything Israel does in its foreign and domestic policy is to be supported. And as we have heard over the years, many members of the Pro-Israel lobby in Washington are motivated not by being Jewish, but by being Millenarian fundamentalist Christians. |
All I can say, is that if you compare him to Coulter or Billy Graham who had said that the jewish influence was messing up america, Dawkins statement doesn't seem quite so bad.
I forgot, Dawkins has a forum up; whether it's set up by him, or just for him, I don't care. Anyhow:
http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=25602
Gee, I guess that it means Dawkins isn't perfect. So much for the xian claims that I've heard about him being the "atheist messiah"... I think that maybe the guy from the Evolving Thoughts blog likely had it right...Dawkins was trying to make a point and it came out wrong...to know for sure, one would have to know his writings in general for more context on his views.
So I don't think that he's really anti-semitic himself. He just said something dumb.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 10/13/2007 08:45:30 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2007 : 09:27:32 [Permalink]
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Thanks, t_i.
I think the keys here are Richard Dawkins' unqualified implication that Jews have a stranglehold of power over US foreign policy (which hearkens back to ancient accusations of unfettered, undue influence), and the use of the term, Jewish Lobby instead of Israel lobby. ("Israel lobby" is far more accurate for what Dawkins was describing, especially in the foreign policy field. Many members of the Israel lobby are fundamentalist Christian. Also, non-Zionist Jews do lobby for matters of domestic concern to Jews within the US.)
I personally suspect these two gaffs, especially since they are used together, are reflections of Dawkins' anti-Semitism. I don't know that for certain, but think it can be reasonably inferred. What I do know is that the words are anti-Semitic, and should be withdrawn and corrected.
When Dawkins speaks of gays, and their struggle for a share of power an respect in terms comparison to that of atheists, he does not manage to piss them off. He seems genuinely sensitive to their issues. He needs, I suspect, equally sensitive to Jews. This is especially important to an atheist like Dawkins, seeing as how many secular Jews are atheists, yet will always see themselves as Jews as well.
I'm sure there are plenty of secular Jews who are talking to him right now, trying to instill that sensitivity. I hope Dawkins is open to it. Ann Coulter certainly isn't.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/13/2007 09:30:18 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 10/14/2007 : 07:49:01 [Permalink]
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http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=442569#p442569
In truth, it'd be best to keep watching that entire thread over there. And also AIG's website for how they will use this.
When RD first wrote about the "Jewish Lobby" in The God Delusion, we all knew what he meant in relation to his wishes that atheists could be just as influential. Of course he could have picked from a multitude of groups to choose from, since atheists will always figure bottom in the league table of influence (herding cats and all that). Having said that, I guess that RD rather wishes with hindsight that he did pick another group for comparison.
I think Orac makes some reasonable points in his blog, that perhaps RD was a little naive in relation to American politics when he made that statement, but we all know that RD is a million miles from being anti-semitic. RD has written a considerable amount so it would be a miricle if the odd error of judgement (even with hindsight) was not made. We must also remember that nobody picked up on the statement when it was first printed in a bestselling book!
What I do find hilarious is that it is now evident, in the second half of 2007, there is a wave of ad-hominen attacks on RD by the faith-heads in an attempt to defend their own self delusions, and pull the warm comfort blanket ever tighter. What we are now seeing is a multitude of faith-heads trawling over every word that RD has said in an attempt to twist it in a way to reassure themselves that RD must be a horrible man so that they can ignore him. |
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 11:06:39 [Permalink]
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No amount of batting around by others is going to fix this. Dawkins needs to clarify, explain, defend, restate, retract, apologize, whatever.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 12:24:20 [Permalink]
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Maybe he was referring to this:
Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs
JINSA's policy recommendations for the U.S. government include:
* Enhanced WMD counterproliferation programs.
* National ballistic missile defense systems.
* Curbing of regional ballistic missile development and production worldwide.
* Increased counter-terrorism training and funding, prior to September 11, 2001 attacks.
* Increased defense cooperation with Israel.
* Substantially improved quality-of-life for U.S. service personnel and their families.
* Support for joint U.S.-Israeli training and weapons development programs.
* A rejection of any peace process with the Palestinians that includes the creation of a sovereign Palestinian state.
* Regime change in "rogue" nation-states known to provide support or knowingly harbor terrorist groups, including Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Libya, and supports a re-evaluation of the U.S. defense relationships with Egypt and Saudi Arabia. |
| Colin Powell, according to Karen DeYoung's 2006 biography of Powell[2], stated that JINSA had influenced Vice President Richard Cheney[3] and others in the Bush administration to rid Israel of Palestine's supporters and protect Israel's security by neutralizing Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Libya by invading and changing those regimes to democracies. |
A look over here might explain further:
Neoconservatism
While there are definitely Jewish Neocons, and may have come up with the idea, kinda, and they have had an influence on Bush and company, they hardly represent the main of Jewish thinking in America. On the whole, Jews tend to be liberals.
Jewish Vote In Presidential Elections
Edited to add source, mostly...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 13:44:11 [Permalink]
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Kil, after following and studying your links, I'm ready to restrict suffrage to Jews. Woo-hoo! Good government, and no more votin' for me!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/14/2007 13:45:10 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 15:36:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Kil, after following and studying your links, I'm ready to restrict suffrage to Jews. Woo-hoo! Good government, and no more votin' for me!
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Right, so the upshot is that even though most of us continue to be liberal, and vote that way, we're getting blamed for this shit by guys like Dawkins...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 17:17:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Kil, after following and studying your links, I'm ready to restrict suffrage to Jews. Woo-hoo! Good government, and no more votin' for me!
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Right, so the upshot is that even though most of us continue to be liberal, and vote that way, we're getting blamed for this shit by guys like Dawkins...
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That bastard.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Ann, She-Wolf of the GOP
