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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2007 :  17:30:05  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's one of the answers that floored me:
If the war in Iraq is so noble, why aren't you and your sister serving our country there? óDonald Pence, San Francisco
I understand that point, but there are many ways to serve our country, and I think my skills are better suited for teaching and representing the U.S. in Latin America through UNICEF. I respect the men and women of our country who are over there fighting. It is an unbelievably selfless thing to do. But if people really thought about it, they would know it's not even a practical question.
[My emphasis.]

Yeah your dumb question is impractical, so screw you. I respect the idiots who die on my behalf, though, the suckers. I'm not like those little clueless, selfless people.

Very impractical question. Evasive, incoherent answer. (Was she coached by Miss Teen South Carolina?) It's more practical to send poor and middle-class youngsters to do the dying for the wealthy, of course.

Jenna Bush's practical answers are as courageous as her Daddy's (booze, partying, and cocaine) during his war.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/11/2007 17:32:26

Mycroft
Skeptic Friend

USA
427 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2007 :  21:01:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mycroft a Private Message  Reply with Quote


She's right. She's not suited to be a soldier. Many people aren't. She's too much of a mindless spoiled twit.

But realistically, it doesn't matter. Invading Iraq would have been just as bad an idea if she were serving in the military. The issue of which politician's sons and daughters do or do not serve is purely emotive and had no logical bearing on the rightness of the war itself. Making an issue of it is just sour grapes.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2007 :  21:58:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Mycroft



She's right. She's not suited to be a soldier. Many people aren't. She's too much of a mindless spoiled twit.

But realistically, it doesn't matter. Invading Iraq would have been just as bad an idea if she were serving in the military. The issue of which politician's sons and daughters do or do not serve is purely emotive and had no logical bearing on the rightness of the war itself. Making an issue of it is just sour grapes.
No, not sour grapes. People should act upon their convictions, especially people who expect others to do so.

It's important that elites demonstrate courage and noblesse oblige. If they don't, they set themselves up for a fall. Jenna's grandfather knew as much, and fought bravely in WWII. But not her dad, and not her. Cowardice combined with wealth and arrogance is not something Americans will accept forever. She's just another Bush "yellow elephant."


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/11/2007 21:59:49
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  00:51:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Yeah your dumb question is impractical, so screw you. I respect the idiots who die on my behalf, though, the suckers. I'm not like those little clueless, selfless people.


Woah, I think you're reading way too much into it. Not everyone is suited for the military, I hope you will agree with at least that much. Do you really think Jenna Bush is?


No, not sour grapes. People should act upon their convictions, especially people who expect others to do so.


So everyone who believes the Iraq war is justified should fight in it? That sounds awfully wrong. Furthermore, people can not act upon all their convictions. I have probably at least a dozen or so I most certainly have not.

If she is truly working with UNICEF, I believe that she is doing good work, of orders of magnitude less selfish than myself. I don't really see how one could criticize her for her non-involvement in the military.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  03:59:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Woah, I think you're reading way too much into it. Not everyone is suited for the military, I hope you will agree with at least that much. Do you really think Jenna Bush is?
I agree everyone's not suited for the military. But everyone, IMO, who is medically able, and who supports the idea others fighting and dying in a war, should volunteer. Let basic training weed out the misfits, as with anyone else. Doing otherwise is simply hypocritical elitism.
So everyone who believes the Iraq war is justified should fight in it? That sounds awfully wrong. Furthermore, people can not act upon all their convictions. I have probably at least a dozen or so I most certainly have not.
Yes, in the case of a war one supports, one should put one's body where one's mouth is.
If she is truly working with UNICEF, I believe that she is doing good work, of orders of magnitude less selfish than myself. I don't really see how one could criticize her for her non-involvement in the military.
I ask hypothetically if you, too, might be able to participate in more charitable work, if you had plenty of money, your own staff, and merely had to make a few quick public appearances in order to appear "involved." I know I'd be doing it all the time, if I had those advantages.

The criticism I have of the Bush twins would be far more widely shared, if they were young men.

Traditional thinking does not expect women to fight wars. But that's sexist. The twins should not be able to rely upon that cultural prejudice to support an "argument" like Jenna's "it's not even a practical question." I think the "Yellow Elephant" argument is valid, for men and women. It's a serious matter of hypocrisy, arrogance and privilege, versus consistency, honor and moral obligation.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/12/2007 04:00:34
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  04:04:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Evolution works hard in the military and neither Jenna nor the other one strikes me as being military material. Not tough enough physically nor mentally, to start with.

It's been all over the 'net for some years and it's all very biblical: "Pack the twins off to Iraq!" but would that not be making them pay for the sins of their father?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  04:16:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

Evolution works hard in the military and neither Jenna nor the other one strikes me as being military material. Not tough enough physically nor mentally, to start with.

It's been all over the 'net for some years and it's all very biblical: "Pack the twins off to Iraq!" but would that not be making them pay for the sins of their father?




Yes, that would be unfair, if the twins did not support their daddy's war.

The Yellow Elephant (or Chicken Hawk) syndrome is a real and serious social problem. Too damned many bloody-minded bastards want other people to die for their ideology. I don't propose drafting NeoCons to fight. But I do think they should either have the courage of their convictions, shut the fuck up, or be held up to well-deserved ridicule. Just because someone would be (probably, though we can't know this) an incompetent potential soldier, that doesn't earn them an exemption from such criticism, IMO.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/12/2007 04:23:53
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  04:32:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

No, not sour grapes. People should act upon their convictions, especially people who expect others to do so.




I don't recall Jena Bush ever declaring war on Iraq. She is not part of her dad's administration, you know this don't you?

So should Chelsy Clinton have flown some bombing missions over Bosnia when her dad ordered the military too? According to your logic she should.

Should George and Jeb have been forced to fight in GW one?

Should Patty and Ron jr. have been shipped off to Panama?

Maybe Amy Carter should have been in one of those helicopters on their way to Tehran?

Heck, maybe John Jr. should have been flying recon over Cuba, rather then just mere peasants doing this.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  04:37:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner


Yes, that would be unfair, if the twins did not support their daddy's war.


So then do we send the kids of these politicians as well? They supported her daddy's war...



http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Edited by - Bill scott on 10/12/2007 04:45:23
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  05:09:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott

Originally posted by HalfMooner


Yes, that would be unfair, if the twins did not support their daddy's war.


So then do we send the kids of these politicians as well? They supported her daddy's war...



http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv

Do their kids support the war? (That wasn't at all evidenced in the video, which named no kids.) If so, of course! They should be held to the same standards as the Bush twins.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  05:34:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Bill scott

Originally posted by HalfMooner


Yes, that would be unfair, if the twins did not support their daddy's war.


So then do we send the kids of these politicians as well? They supported her daddy's war...



http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv

Do their kids support the war? (That wasn't at all evidenced in the video, which named no kids.) If so, of course! They should be held to the same standards as the Bush twins.




The interview I saw of her on 20/20 she would not comment on her own personal thouights the war.

So politician's kids should go be involved in arm conflicts that their parents support, unless they disagree, then they are exempt?

That's a bizarre interesting policy.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  05:44:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by filthy

Evolution works hard in the military and neither Jenna nor the other one strikes me as being military material. Not tough enough physically nor mentally, to start with.

It's been all over the 'net for some years and it's all very biblical: "Pack the twins off to Iraq!" but would that not be making them pay for the sins of their father?




Yes, that would be unfair, if the twins did not support their daddy's war.

The Yellow Elephant (or Chicken Hawk) syndrome is a real and serious social problem. Too damned many bloody-minded bastards want other people to die for their ideology. I don't propose drafting NeoCons to fight. But I do think they should either have the courage of their convictions, shut the fuck up, or be held up to well-deserved ridicule. Just because someone would be (probably, though we can't know this) an incompetent potential soldier, that doesn't earn them an exemption from such criticism, IMO.


Blood is thicker than water, assuming that the Bush family actually has blood (it requires a heart, I think, doesn't it?). The twins have never shown the independence nor the acuity to go against their parents wishs, and frankly I'm a little amazed that Jenna actually has a job. And she's fixing to be married to one of Rove's toadies, forgotten which one, with Daddy's warmest blessings. I don't know what the brunette is doing. I haven't been paying attention.

They are and have always been superficial party girls who would likely never make it through boot. On a practical basis, why waste the money?

I am not comfortable discussing the children of polititcians however foul they might be. I remember too well what happened to Chelsea Clinton, who probably would make a damned fine officer in any branch. If my daughters had been on the recieving end of such treatment, Rush would have landed in the hospital. I'd have made it my business to put him there.

But I agree that people should put their money where their mouth's at. Even a casual reading of the military service history of the neocons shows a huge disparity between they and the liberals of the Vietnam era, and many of these are now in government. Weaseling bullshit deferments (draft-dodging) is rife among them, Limbaugh & Cheney being prime examples, and Bush couldn't even finish a gravy hitch in a rich boy's NG unit. Pretty damned shameful, but I won't lay that on their children. They have more than enough to live down just from their patents blatant cowardice.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  05:46:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Do their kids support the war?






Who cares? The men and women of our armed forces must go fight whither they agree with the conflict of not. So if your advocating that we stick the kids of politicians in the armed forces, to keep their parent's trigger fingers honest, as you imply, then why give them an except card to use to bail out on the comment? The poor and middle class armed forces personal are not given this option, to opt out of the war if they don't like it, so why give this option to the privileged offspring of our elected officials?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  06:18:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy







Blood is thicker than water, assuming that the Bush family actually has blood (it requires a heart, I think, doesn't it?). The twins have never shown the independence nor the acuity to go against their parents wishs, and frankly I'm a little amazed that Jenna actually has a job. And she's fixing to be married to one of Rove's toadies, forgotten which one, with Daddy's warmest blessings. I don't know what the brunette is doing. I haven't been paying attention.


Why would you be surprised she has a job? She is a collage graduate.


They are and have always been superficial party girls who would likely never make it through boot.


Yeah, I mean how many 20 year olds party while off at college? And isn't boot camp known for straightening out a lot of immature youth and putting them on the right path? So it's really nothing more then your opinion, based of what you see in the media, on how either would do in boot.





I am not comfortable discussing the children of polititcians however foul they might be.


But yet you just did what makes you uncomfortable not more then three sentences up?????





I remember too well what happened to Chelsea Clinton,


But's it's OK for you to do it to the Bush twins?



who probably would make a damned fine officer in any branch.


Just like her daddy, right?


If my daughters had been on the recieving end of such treatment, Rush would have landed in the hospital. I'd have made it my business to put him there.


So by your own account, GWB owes you a trip to the hospital.



But I agree that people should put their money where their mouth's at. Even a casual reading of the military service history of the neocons shows a huge disparity between they and the liberals of the Vietnam era, and many of these are now in government. Weaseling bullshit deferments (draft-dodging) is rife among them, Limbaugh & Cheney being prime examples, and Bush couldn't even finish a gravy hitch in a rich boy's NG unit. Pretty damned shameful,


Wasn't Clinton of fighting age during nam?


but I won't lay that on their children.


But you will lay personal attacks on them, such as their party habits in college? I am sure Chelsy never popped open a cold beer at some college party. (sigh)


"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  07:07:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott

Originally posted by HalfMooner

Do their kids support the war?






Who cares? The men and women of our armed forces must go fight whither they agree with the conflict of not. So if your advocating that we stick the kids of politicians in the armed forces, to keep their parent's trigger fingers honest, as you imply, then why give them an except card to use to bail out on the comment? The poor and middle class armed forces personal are not given this option, to opt out of the war if they don't like it, so why give this option to the privileged offspring of our elected officials?
We don't have a draft, Bill. The poor, at least in law if not in economic reality, do have the right to opt out of fighting. What I'm talking about is moral responsibility for these people to do as they believe others should do. If they believe a war us evil, they should not fight in it. If they believe it's a good war, they should be in the middle it.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  07:20:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't want anyone to go to any of these criminal wars. I dont' care if it's hypocrites or saints.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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