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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  05:29:21  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jonathan Sarfati, 'Anti-slavery activist William Wilberforce: Christian hero', ibid., 126: (from Journal of Creation (Creation Ministries International), Vol. 21(2), June 2007, )

...[W]hy is there no command in the Bible to free the slaves immediately? Because the commands in the Bible ... [e.g. Ephesians 6:9] would subtly undermine the institution [of slavery] far better than a slave rebellion.

Well, let's see the whole context of that verse, shall we?


5 Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; 6 not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7 with goodwill doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.
9 And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also[b] is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.

http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/07/25/the-bible-slavery-and-morality/



Yeah, that's subtle all right, so subtle that the guy quoted below thinks that according to the bible, xtians could still own slaves today. The reason that the bible doesn't have any commands to free the slaves is because since the bible was written in times when slavery was a normal part of economic life back then. Not because "god" had any intention of "subtly" freeing them.

I'll likely be making more comments later; I intend to post this, and more, on that CultureWatch site linked to below. Only I've got to got to bed soon, and to work soon after.

But I will be posting more on this! Just read the BS from Bill's site:

Bill Muehlenberg
27.7.07 / 6pm

And as an atheist, you have yet to convince us why it is you should be concerned about slavery at all. Why don#8217;t you just side with Darwin when he speaks of some races being favoured over other races? Atheists are the ones who have the real problem concerning slavery, not theists.

Well, let's see:
http://home.att.net/~troybritain/articles/darwin_on_race.htm
I'd say that Darwin was less "subtle" about being against slavery than the bible was!

Then there's http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA005_1.html

1) Virtually all Englishmen in Darwin's time viewed blacks as culturally and intellectually inferior to Europeans. Some men of that time (such as Louis Agassiz, a staunch creationist) went so far as to say they were a different species. Charles Darwin was a product of his times and no doubt viewed non-Europeans as inferior in ways, but he was far more liberal than most: He vehemently opposed slavery (Darwin 1913, especially chap. 21), and he contributed to missionary work to better the condition of the native Tierra del Fuegans. He treated people of all races with compassion.

2) The mention of "favoured races" in the subtitle of Origin of Species merely refers to variations within species which survive to leave more offspring. It does not imply racism.


From Troy's site, linked to above:
As an aside many antievolutionists point to the complete title of Darwin's seminal work; On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or the Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life, and claim that the reference to "favored races" illustrates that his evolutionary theories were intended to support racism. Contrary to such assertions this was not a reference to human races per se (one should note that Darwin barely mentioned humans at all in this book). Rather it was merely a reference to localized variations within a species (generic), which may, in a changing environment, grant greater survival value. None of the racist rhetoric about the supposed inherent superiority of certain human races over others was suggested or implied in this.



Feel free to add your own stuff too. I'll take all the help I can get, for I am lazy.

David Clay, comment on The Bible, slavery and morality, 28 Jul. 2007:

Thus it is not inconsistent for a Christian to have a slave, whether it be biblical times, colonial times, or even today in the name of employment; providing that the Christian obeys the scriptural teaching on how they are to treat their slaves, or employees for today's sake.



All this was originally found at http://www.unbelief.org/briefs/

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.

Edited by - the_ignored on 10/12/2007 06:05:18

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  06:03:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Who is this slavery-loving David Clay, and where can I go to tar and feather the bastard? He blithely states that slavery is perfectly Christian, and then even implies that slavery is required because "If a person, institution, or society claimed to be Christian but ignored the Biblical laws regarding slaves, their claim would rightly so be questioned."

Son of a bitch, that guy pisses me off!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  06:24:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I've tried to reply:


Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Bill Muehlenberg
27.7.07 / 6pm

[i]And as an atheist, you have yet to convince us why it is you should be concerned about slavery at all. Why don#8217;t you just side with Darwin when he speaks of some races being favoured over other races? Atheists are the ones who have the real problem concerning slavery, not theists.

Well, Bill, as you#8217;ll see below, Darwin was less of a racist than his contemporaries#8230;and the title of his book was NOT talking about human #8220;races#8221;.

BTW, slavery was around in the OT and NT times as a matter of economic necessity. That#8217;s why #8220;god#8221; didn#8217;t say anything against it. Compare what the bible says about slavery to what Darwin says in the quotes and links below.

According to this, I#8217;d say that Darwin was less #8220;subtle#8221; about being against slavery than the bible was!

Then there#8217;s this site

1) Virtually all Englishmen in Darwin#8217;s time viewed blacks as culturally and intellectually inferior to Europeans. Some men of that time (such as Louis Agassiz, a staunch creationist) went so far as to say they were a different species. Charles Darwin was a product of his times and no doubt viewed non-Europeans as inferior in ways, but he was far more liberal than most: He vehemently opposed slavery (Darwin 1913, especially chap. 21), and he contributed to missionary work to better the condition of the native Tierra del Fuegans. He treated people of all races with compassion.

2) The mention of #8220;favoured races#8221; in the subtitle of Origin of Species merely refers to variations within species which survive to leave more offspring. It does not imply racism.

BTW, where does Sarfati think that the people of the american South got the idea for slavery from? Did they not use the bible to justify it?


I'm not going to bother with formatting right now, hopefully, it'll show up on their site.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  07:16:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hope that gets posted, t_i. But fundies generally are very careful not to let facts and reason creep into their fora. And that's a particularly creepy lot of 'em.




Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/12/2007 07:18:05
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  20:56:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is slavery for the same reason there is rape, murder, theft, etc. It is not condoned as Exodus 12:16 states:

"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)


Also, these verses show that everyone is equal in Gods eyes:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)

knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. (Ephesians 6:8)

And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. (Ephesians 6:9)

a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11)

The purpose of the Bible is not to transform society with a set of rules but to point the way to salvation. Onced saved, I think that these verses would tell a Christian that slavery is wrong.

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Mt 7:12

And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' Mt 22:39

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. Jn 13:34

Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. Ro 12:10

Do everything in love. 1Co 16:14

Can you really believe these scriptures and enslave someone?


Edited to add quotations for ease of reading.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
Edited by - Robb on 10/12/2007 21:03:38
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Dave W.
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USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  21:33:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

There is slavery for the same reason there is rape, murder, theft, etc. It is not condoned as Exodus 12:16 states:
"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)
Please, read all of Exodus 21. It is mostly rules on how to treat your Hebrew slaves and your cattle. 21:16 talks about stealing someone else's slave. 21:20 says if you beat your servants and they die immediately, you get punished. But 21:21 says if you beat your servants and they live for a day or two before dying, you're fine because your servants are your money. 21:32 says that ox-induced injuries to slaves are worth 30 shekels of silver (plus the death of the ox). 21:2, 5 and 6 say that if you buy a servant, he'll serve for six years and go free on the seventh, unless he wants to stay in which case you get to pierce his ear and keep him forever.
Also, these verses show that everyone is equal in Gods eyes:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)

knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. (Ephesians 6:8)

And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. (Ephesians 6:9)

a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11)
Yes, everyone's the same in God's judgement, but the Old Testament laws (from which not "a jot or tittle" has been done away with according to Jesus) clearly condoned slavery. That God won't favor masters or slaves when they come before Him doesn't mean that God didn't plan for there to be masters and slaves. God created slavery, after all.
The purpose of the Bible is not to transform society with a set of rules but to point the way to salvation. Onced saved, I think that these verses would tell a Christian that slavery is wrong.
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Mt 7:12

And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' Mt 22:39

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. Jn 13:34

Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. Ro 12:10

Do everything in love. 1Co 16:14
Can you really believe these scriptures and enslave someone?
You're implying that you can't love a slave as you love yourself. I don't see how that'd be an issue. We're not talking stereotypical southern plantation slavery, but we're still talking slavery.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  21:40:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

You're implying that you can't love a slave as you love yourself. I don't see how that'd be an issue. We're not talking stereotypical southern plantation slavery, but we're still talking slavery.
I am not implying I cannot love a slave but that I cannot enslave anyone I love.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Dave W.
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USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2007 :  21:49:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

I am not implying I cannot love a slave but that I cannot enslave anyone I love.
I'm glad you've got that attitude, Robb. I can sincerely say that I think the world needs more people like you. Because many of your bretheren (and even your God) aren't (or haven't been) so enlightened.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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pleco
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USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2007 :  05:22:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Robb do you still think the Bible doesn't condone slavery?

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 10/13/2007 05:22:44
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2007 :  09:35:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

Originally posted by Dave W.

You're implying that you can't love a slave as you love yourself. I don't see how that'd be an issue. We're not talking stereotypical southern plantation slavery, but we're still talking slavery.
I am not implying I cannot love a slave but that I cannot enslave anyone I love.
The Old Testament Hebrews mainly enslaved those they hated, or enemies that simply got in their way, not those they loved. Does hate (or merely lack of love) justify slavery?


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/13/2007 09:35:44
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Robb
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USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2007 :  12:28:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by pleco

Robb do you still think the Bible doesn't condone slavery?
Yes

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2007 :  12:29:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Robb

Originally posted by Dave W.

You're implying that you can't love a slave as you love yourself. I don't see how that'd be an issue. We're not talking stereotypical southern plantation slavery, but we're still talking slavery.
I am not implying I cannot love a slave but that I cannot enslave anyone I love.
The Old Testament Hebrews mainly enslaved those they hated, or enemies that simply got in their way, not those they loved. Does hate (or merely lack of love) justify slavery?


No.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2007 :  15:12:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

Originally posted by pleco

Robb do you still think the Bible doesn't condone slavery?
Yes
You're kidding, right? Biblical laws mandating how to properly treat a slave implicitly condone the institution itself. Slavery was quite common in the ancient world, and Israel and Judah were not exceptional in that regard.
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2007 :  08:27:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by pleco
Robb do you still think the Bible doesn't condone slavery?
Yes

Poor Rob has been reduced to one word answers because the Bible clearly shows that slavery is condoned. When he trys to present any evidence you simply show him in the bible where slavery is acceptable.

This is a real dilemma for the fundies because they maintain the morals of the christians don't change over time and they are not swayed by societies morals. But clearly slavery is now considered immoral by society and christians in general, but it is not immoral in the bible.
The way most christians get around this (at least the ones I've talked to) is to say that, "the bible isn't talking about slaves and masters, it is talking about employees and employers". I guess dishonesty is better than admitting the bible condones slavery.


If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2007 :  17:55:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by furshur

Originally posted by pleco
Robb do you still think the Bible doesn't condone slavery?
Yes

Poor Rob has been reduced to one word answers because the Bible clearly shows that slavery is condoned. When he trys to present any evidence you simply show him in the bible where slavery is acceptable.

This is a real dilemma for the fundies because they maintain the morals of the christians don't change over time and they are not swayed by societies morals. But clearly slavery is now considered immoral by society and christians in general, but it is not immoral in the bible.
The way most christians get around this (at least the ones I've talked to) is to say that, "the bible isn't talking about slaves and masters, it is talking about employees and employers". I guess dishonesty is better than admitting the bible condones slavery.


Yeah, the King James Bible changed "slave" to "servant," which to a modern ear may seem to imply an employee. ("Bondman" is also used, which is much harder to imagine as anything but a slave.)
Leviticus
25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Oddly, no details on wages scales paid, or the use of employment advertisements or job recruiters.
25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
Anyone denying the Bible condones slavery is a scripture-denying heretic.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2007 :  15:18:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Anyone denying the Bible condones slavery is a scripture-denying heretic.
It's worse than that.

Leviticus 25:1 begins, "The LORD said to Moses on Mount Sinai," and what follows is a quote. From God. It ends with Leviticus 26:45.

So God said that it's okay to take slaves from among the heathen and the strangers, and that it's okay to treat them as property. The Bible just reports on what transpired. In fact, in the NIV, Leviticus 26:46 reads, "These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the LORD established on Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses." And according to Jesus (Matthew 5:18), "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

The Bible only condones slavery because God does.

[Edited to fix typo - Dave W.]

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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