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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 10/22/2007 : 20:48:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by pleco
Paul added that if one of the spouses is a non-believer, then the non-believer can divorce and believer is absolved and can re-marry. Just FYI. |
Paul. [snort] What the heck did he know? 
Seriously, that's news to me. You got a chapter-and-verse citation for that? Not that I don't believe you (it sounds about right), I just want to know from where it comes.
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Of course you should ask for reference! I should have put it in the first place.
1st Corinthians Chapter 7:
But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
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And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
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For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
children Mal 2:15
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But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. |
We note that Paul states that this is his opinion and not the Lord, so this could all mean squat. But who knows?
And apparently children of the infidel are "unclean", whereas children of at least one believer are not.
So this means all the little kids of North American Indians and other peoples who never heard of Christ until the Europeans read "The Requirement" to them all had unclean children, which to me sounds like they might be swimming in some hot water right about now.
Of course, the Spanish and English and French who conquered here all had slaves of both Indian and African descent, and they were God-fearing men. But, they were also Catholic, so were they really Christians? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 10/22/2007 20:55:16 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 21:00:15 [Permalink]
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Ah! Thanks.
Interesting that those passages don't say that the Christian can divorce the unbeliever.
Tricky guy, that Paul. If your heathen spouse likes you, you're stuck with him/her.
Unless they cheat on you, of course. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2007 : 00:18:17 [Permalink]
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It has to do with the whole master/slave theme in the bible. The believer is a slave to God, the wife is a slave to the husband, slaves are just slaves...
| Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. |
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2007 : 13:49:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
It has to do with the whole master/slave theme in the bible. The believer is a slave to God, the wife is a slave to the husband, slaves are just slaves...
| Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. |
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Are you are being intentionally desceptive? I am not a slave to Christ in the sense that he forces me to follow him. I follow him willingly. Not a characteristic of most slaves in the world. Also, I do not force my wife to do anything. I follow the Bible and love her as Christ loves me. She follows the Bible willingly. Not a normal relationship for a slave and a master either. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2007 : 13:52:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by Robb
This is one of my favorite passages in the Bible. Basically, if you can create everything then you can end slavery yourself. Even though you do not believe in God how can you say slavery is wrong when you do not even know how we got here, let alone be able to create the universe. You probably know less then 1 billionth of what there is to know, yet you are 100% sure there is no God. I do not know much about the universe as well but I do know the one who created it. |
Is this the old "morality can only come from god"? |
Where do you get your morality from and why is it valid?
| How can I say slavery is wrong? Easy, just apply the "Golden Rule." |
Are you quoting the Bible or is that your morality you choose to follow?
Now back to slavery. I do not know why God allows/condones slavery, but I do trust he knows infinitely more than I do and that there is a purpose.
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So now you agree the Bible does condone slavery? |
Not yet. It allows for slavery and God has not put an end to it yet.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2007 : 13:58:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by pleco
It has to do with the whole master/slave theme in the bible. The believer is a slave to God, the wife is a slave to the husband, slaves are just slaves...
| Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. |
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Are you are being intentionally desceptive? I am not a slave to Christ in the sense that he forces me to follow him. I follow him willingly. Not a characteristic of most slaves in the world. Also, I do not force my wife to do anything. I follow the Bible and love her as Christ loves me. She follows the Bible willingly. Not a normal relationship for a slave and a master either.
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You follow him or burn in hell forever. Yeah, that sounds like "willingly".
1st Timothy 2:11-12
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. |
Is that how you treat your wife? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 10/23/2007 14:16:24 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2007 : 14:08:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Where do you get your morality from and why is it valid?
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Golden Rule. It is a logical way of living, to me.
Using the definition of valid, I conclude that the "Golden Rule" is valid because it fits definitions 2 and 3.
| Are you quoting the Bible or is that your morality you choose to follow? |
I am not quoting the Bible, but "Golden Rule" is the well known term. The concept existed well before it was put in the Bible.
| Not yet. It allows for slavery and God has not put an end to it yet. |
Is this some definition of condone I'm not familiar with? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2007 : 12:51:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
You follow him or burn in hell forever. Yeah, that sounds like "willingly". |
There is a third choice and that is not to believe as you have chosen.
1st Timothy 2:11-12
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. |
Is that how you treat your wife?
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No, this is talking about instruction in the church service. | Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:14-15 NIV) |
My wife and mother in law has taught me much about God. But there are roles men and women have in the home and church meetings. This is clear that women should not preach to a congregation or interprete scripture to define doctrine. That is left to the elders of the church and they are defines as men. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
| Edited by - Robb on 10/26/2007 13:12:54 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2007 : 13:09:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by Robb
Where do you get your morality from and why is it valid?
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Golden Rule. It is a logical way of living, to me.
Using the definition of valid, I conclude that the "Golden Rule" is valid because it fits definitions 2 and 3. |
As you said it is valid for you. Why should I live my life in a "logical way" like you do? On what basis can you say living an illogical life is wrong?
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2007 : 13:11:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I think Robb is treating "condone" as a synonym of "approve."
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I think I was also. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2007 : 13:25:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by Robb
Where do you get your morality from and why is it valid?
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Golden Rule. It is a logical way of living, to me.
Using the definition of valid, I conclude that the "Golden Rule" is valid because it fits definitions 2 and 3. |
As you said it is valid for you. Why should I live my life in a "logical way" like you do? On what basis can you say living an illogical life is wrong?
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I think I have (and others too) asked this to a few christians (including you, if I remember correctly): If (and only IF) you were given some definite proof that God does not exist, some sort of proof, I can´t imagine of what kind, that would convince you without a shadow of a doubt. ¿Would you stop caring about living a life with some kind of "moral" code, even if it´s not "absolut" morals?
Also, I think people confuse "moral" in the way the church uses it with "ethical".
(edited to correct spelling)
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"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
| Edited by - perrodetokio on 10/26/2007 13:27:17 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 07:02:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by pleco
You follow him or burn in hell forever. Yeah, that sounds like "willingly". |
There is a third choice and that is not to believe as you have chosen. |
You believe that the Christian God is real. Therefore, you have two "choices": 1) Not follow the god's edicts, and suffer eternally or 2) Follow the god's edicts, and you are promised paradise. Not really much of a choice is it?
Sounds a lot like a master/slave relationship to me. The slave is allowed to live, eat, possibly have more little slaves as long as the slave obeys the master without question.
So what is this third choice? Tell me how a relationship with the christian god is anything other than what I just described. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 07:25:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
My wife and mother in law has taught me much about God. But there are roles men and women have in the home and church meetings. This is clear that women should not preach to a congregation or interprete [sic] scripture to define doctrine. That is left to the elders of the church and they are defines as men.
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The first scripture, as you say, relates only to instruction in the church. Automatically, women are set to a lower standard. Let's continue....
Genesis 9:25-27
And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. |
God gave an entire tribe of people to Noah as slaves.
Genesis 24:35-36
And the LORD hath blessed my master [Abraham] greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses. And Sarah my master's wife bare a son to my master when she was old: and unto him hath he given all that he hath. |
Here god blesses Abraham with slaves.
Exodus 21:7
And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant.... |
You can sell your daughter. (not your son, of course)
Leviticus 25:44-46
Thy bond-men and thy bond-maids which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you: of them shall ye buy bond-men and bond-maids. Moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land. And they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession, they shall be your bond-man forever. |
"which thou shalt have" seems to be approving, yes? And they will be slaves forever.
Colossians 3:22
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ. |
Not the relationship of a slave to master as with Christ.
Deuteronomy 20:14
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself. |
Again with the women.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Bible and Slavery
