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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2998 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2007 :  12:02:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Adolf Hitler may have had perfectly sound reasons for being a vegetarian. But they probably had nothing at all to do with his politics or racism.


Yeah, he really hated plants.

I also really don't care if this guy was a racist, or even an anti-dentite. But I do care about the truth, and so when a statement is made that he is a racist, I want to know if he was or not. Just like if the statement is made that he converted to some religious death-cult.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2007 :  13:39:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Do we actually know he is in poor mental health, or are we just assuming he is because he is old?
He can't remember the conversations that his book says he took part in. He can't even define "abiogenesis" any longer. Didn't you read the article?
Why would any atheist want to claim this blithering old racist as one of their own anyway?
I don't know of any who want to "claim" him except the fundamentalists, which is the point.

If his conversion is genuine, it's an "oh, well" situation for atheists. But it's a "everyone look at the great revered atheist who's turned religious!" scenario for the fundies, because they think Flew is the atheist equivalent of a priest, and they need to exploit that misconception in order to win political points in the Culture Wars.

I don't care any more about Flew than I do any other person who's obviously at a disadvantage at the hands of conmen. Flew is only in the news because the conmen have repeatedly made sure he's in the news, unlike the grifters preying upon other octagenarians (in which case getting press is the same as having fewer people to con).

Oh, and Pascal was a brilliant mathematician and scientist until he abandoned such pursuits in favor of theology and philosophy. There appears to be little reason to think that for the last eight years of his life, he wasn't foolishly desperate, trying to get good with God after some terrifying visions.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2007 :  18:24:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From Richard Carrier:
This book never once mentions my name. Or any of the articles I sent to Flew. Nor does it address any of the questions or issues that I raised in my correspondence with Flew. Moreover, the author writing under Flew's name makes a crucial mistake at one point that confirms that he had read none of our correspondence and knew nothing of my letters and attachments to Flew, or Flew's to me. This is more important than it might sound. Because it confirms that this book tells us absolutely nothing about what Flew really believes, or why. It is entirely the creation of a pair of hack Christian evangelicals, and represents only the beliefs, arguments, and concerns of American Christian propagandists.
Awesome.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2007 :  20:12:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

From Richard Carrier:
This book never once mentions my name. Or any of the articles I sent to Flew. Nor does it address any of the questions or issues that I raised in my correspondence with Flew. Moreover, the author writing under Flew's name makes a crucial mistake at one point that confirms that he had read none of our correspondence and knew nothing of my letters and attachments to Flew, or Flew's to me. This is more important than it might sound. Because it confirms that this book tells us absolutely nothing about what Flew really believes, or why. It is entirely the creation of a pair of hack Christian evangelicals, and represents only the beliefs, arguments, and concerns of American Christian propagandists.
Awesome.
Carrier is utterly convincing in his detailed analysis. Flew wrote nothing of "his" book. Also, there is this from the NYT article, where we hear the same from the horse's own mouth:
As he himself conceded, he had not written his book.

“This is really Roy's doing,” he said, before I had even figured out a polite way to ask. “He showed it to me, and I said O.K. I'm too old for this kind of work!”



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Halcyon Dayz
New Member

Netherlands
27 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2007 :  08:14:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Halcyon Dayz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's just mindbogglingly dishonest.

They are predators.

An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it. -- Don Marquis

"The universe is a strange, practically incomprehensible place. But that is how things are, and no amount of wishing that things are really the way we perceive them will change that." - The Black Cat
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2007 :  08:27:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah these are the type of a-holes that are willing to 'help' armageddon along because they are so convinced that Jesus wants them to.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2007 :  09:17:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Blaise Pascal has long been a personal inspiration of mine. Until he went off the religious deep end, he was among the premire scientists of his generation. Here's one of his geometric calaulations:


Pascal's Triangle. Have fun.


I find it such a pity that he has been reduced to being best known for an asinine statement. But if it could happen to Pascal, it could happen to anyone, including Anthony Flew.

If what I've read is correct, he has merely become a deist, rather like many of our founding fathers, notably Thomas Jefferson. He believes in no personal savior nor an afterlife, nor the deity interfering in human affaris, so really, little has changed.

Therefore, I must ask: what's all the shouting about?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 11/09/2007 09:25:06
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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2007 :  11:09:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

One of the things that most terrifies me is the possibility that, decades from now, my ability to think (or at least protect myself from predators like Varghese) will be undermined by forgetfulness and/or delerium.


Look to the bright side Dave. In order for you, (as a future old coot) to be manipulated into endorsing a sham or some scheme co-opted for the personal gain of others, you would first have to achieve notoriety as a philosopher, thinker, artist or a scientist. So you can at least look forward to creating a worthy legacy before any attempts arise to co-opt your fame.

Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.

"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.)
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2007 :  11:56:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Id hire an assassin to kill anyone who messes with my pothumous (cough)legacy, they'll never suspect me when I'm dead!

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2007 :  08:54:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reciprocating Bill rips Dembski a new one for attributing Oppenheimer's article to vile and despicable atheism.

Oh, and Chippewa, I'm more worried that when I'm an old coot, I'll get taken in by those schmucks who will "seal" my driveway with nothing more than a dozen cans of black spray paint.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2007 :  15:45:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Reciprocating Bill rips Dembski a new one for attributing Oppenheimer's article to vile and despicable atheism.

Oh, and Chippewa, I'm more worried that when I'm an old coot, I'll get taken in by those schmucks who will "seal" my driveway with nothing more than a dozen cans of black spray paint.
The Reciprocating Bill piece demonstrates that Dembski didn't even do the slightest research before attacking "The Turning of an Atheist" as a hatchet-job and its author, Oppenheimer, as a raving New Atheist. Typical DI-style utter lack of honesty and basic scholarship.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2007 :  16:11:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hence my latest lolcreationist.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2007 :  17:00:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
God doesn't play with dice; Dembski does it for Him.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2007 :  17:58:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mark Perakh's take on the whole ugly mess, with some details of Schroeder's knowledge and reliability.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2007 :  10:55:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From way back on the 14th:
My name is on the book and it represents exactly my opinions. I would not have a book issued in my name that I do not 100 percent agree with. I needed someone to do the actual writing because I'm 84 and that was Roy Varghese's role. The idea that someone manipulated me because I'm old is exactly wrong. I may be old but it is hard to manipulate me. This is my book and it represents my thinking
There's also an update from Carrier (which addresses the above quote), along with lots and lots of comments on his earlier-linked-to blog post.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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