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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
 Posted - 11/15/2007 : 10:02:40
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YO: Check out this one page article in the November 19th The Nation.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071119/klein
Naomi strikes again.
OY !
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"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty
"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde
"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2007 : 12:12:56 [Permalink]
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That is a pretty disgusting article, OY. They are taking us back in time to the 1800's, when private fire brigades would paint a red "X" on homes and businesses that were not to be saved.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2007 : 13:49:39 [Permalink]
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My father's townhouse in Baltimore had a big brass plaque on the front reading "1791." At first, he thought that it was commemorating the date the place was built. Turns out that it was the "fire tax" plaque, and the house just happened to be #1791. The city fire brigades would only save homes that had the fire tax plaques on them.
The deed to the house still had clauses prohibiting colored people from living there unless they were servants. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2007 : 14:51:08 [Permalink]
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| You all seem to need a lesson. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 11/15/2007 14:52:20 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2007 : 17:34:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
You all seem to need a lesson.
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So "simple," the text at the beginning admits that "capitalism" is not even defined in the film.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2007 : 18:16:13 [Permalink]
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YO, Gorgo. I like the way they suggest in this 1948 piece of propaganda that the labor union guy is lazy. Of course, the subtext of that is: all people who don't own property and aren't strongly motivated to reap profits are lazy. And that citizens who are more inclined to go into professions that are helpful or creative are suspect. Fuck that notion.
And why didn't this goofy movie mention that, through a fluke, corporations were made to be legal individuals as is rightly so for human beings?
In the film, Mr. Brown reminds me of my maternal grandfather who was in the grocery and meat cutting business early in the 20th century in Kansas. He was a very nice guy and provided for a wife and family of six. He was a lot nicer than Duck! Cheney! or George Wanker Bush.
I think the teenaged cast in this film should move on to the next movie set and block moves for their next extravaganza, "Reefer Madness," getting way more than just one toke over the line.
OY! Orwellingly Yurz, here.
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"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty
"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde
"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2007 : 18:24:01 [Permalink]
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The problem I have noticed with discussions of this kind is that the people who partake in them most often tend to be strongly polarized to one side, leaving no room for compromise. The film suggests that things weren't much different in 1948.
What is wrong with the middle position, that seems to be where the US gov was heading at one time, where markets and capitalism were regulated as lightly as possible to ensure fairness in trade practice, consumer safety, accountability, and to provide some measure of economic justice?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2007 : 19:30:12 [Permalink]
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YO: It was asked above, "What is wrong with the middle position?"
That's been my precise question for a long time. My answer to that is: when you have very right wing radicals who masquerade as conservatives, the blowback causes a proliferation of left wing
radicals. I could see this coming as it became clear Bush 'won' by stealing the 2000 election. The moderate middle is being bombarded by either right or left fringes now. I lived in way South Texas just long enough to see and be chilled by the compassionless power structure that holds sway in cattle and oil there.
The state the globe is in today, environmentally as well as politically, is volatile, to say the least. People afraid of right wing totalitarianism put fear into people afraid of left wing totalitarianism. Then when you throw in the disparate value cards, some of course, red herrings, it's just like Bush never failing to pour gasoline on every thing that confronts him. And, the price continues upward: nearing $3.50 a gallon where I live.
Bush is very dangerous to living things, just like Stalin, Hitler and other lesser known arrogant, self-absorbed lunatics were and are!!
I remember both Stalin and Hitler. What a pair to draw to!
OY!!
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"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty
"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde
"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
| Edited by - Orwellingly Yurz on 11/15/2007 19:39:12 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2007 : 04:11:08 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote: | What is wrong with the middle position, that seems to be where the US gov was heading at one time, where markets and capitalism were regulated as lightly as possible to ensure fairness in trade practice, consumer safety, accountability, and to provide some measure of economic justice? |
Is this not exactly where the Democratic party is? More socialistic old-style Democrats such as Dennis Kucinich have been pushed back and grouped with the liberal fringe. All the mainstream candidates are proposing health care solutions which are not nearly as socialized as most of the Western world. I think the middle is the most popular stance right now, with stronger capitalism second, socialism still rather taboo, and communistic stance now laughable. At least that's the impression I get from mainstream media indicators and how Americans are voting. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2007 : 04:15:16 [Permalink]
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On a related note, my husband recently told me about a new wing of luxury health care opening up at his hospital. When he found the pamphlet for it he was totally disgusted and enraged. When he expressed his feelings to coworkers, they seemed completely perplexed. Here's a link:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/20070903_Luxury_hotel_-_or_hospital_.html
| At a time when much of the political world is focused on helping people afford medical care at all, big-name hospitals are finding that some patients will pay extra for privacy, peace and perks. At the Methodist Hospital in Houston, some pay a whopping $1,339 extra a day for a large suite in the Sue Fondren Trammell Pavilion. Because people with that kind of money are more likely than the rest of us to make donations, hospitals have an incentive to keep them cozy. |
Because we all know that Reaganomics works so well the first time. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2007 : 12:41:39 [Permalink]
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With regard to healthcare specifically:
Yes, the current business model of healthcare-for-profit lends itself to the kind of catering and extras in your link.
Get used to it, because it isn't going away. You can debate the merits of it all day long, but the bottom line is simple. If you can afford to pay, you will be getting more personalized care in the future. Resturant style food choices, ppv movies, large private rooms, spa/resort-like atmosphere, and so on.
Those stuck with medicare, HMOs, or plain old health insurance will be stuck with the same old things. Cafeteria food, roommates, basic cable (if you are lucky), and the current assembly line style of patient care (efficiency > quality).
But really, if you can afford the perks, can you blame hospitals and healthcare providers for offering them to people?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2007 : 15:08:57 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote: | But really, if you can afford the perks, can you blame hospitals and healthcare providers for offering them to people? |
I'm actually rather moderate when it comes to economics, although these days I would be painted as very left leaning. Hell, these days "The Economist" is often considered a liberal publication in America! Anyway, I don't mind when people who have more money spend it on luxuries, and certainly nicer rooms and better food are luxuries. The thing that bothers me is the idea that profits from these luxuries or their charity is increasingly the source of funds being used to offset the cost of actual health care for the poor. When it comes to basic necessities of life, I strongly believe that those with more should be required (typically through taxes) to pay into the system, not have it be an optional thing that they contribute to through charity or through the profits they generate from purchasing luxuries. And I take this stance because if it is optional, we have a system where those who are charitable will have less power and influence, and those who are greedy will have more. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2007 : 17:19:39 [Permalink]
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marf said:
| The thing that bothers me is the idea that profits from these luxuries or their charity is increasingly the source of funds being used to offset the cost of actual health care for the poor. |
You'll not get much argument from me on this issue. The US needs to examine the European healthcare systems and learn how they provide coverage for almost everyone (and not go broke, and still have excellent healthcare) and come up with our own version. It is, imo, a great failing of this country to allow any of our citizens to be without basic healthcare.
But I still don't know why anyone would be outraged by a hospital offering a premium service. Same for insurance companies and travel agencies offering premium services to protect homes from fire or evac from a hurricane.
The criticism is more properly directed, I think, at the government for failing to provide the basics.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2007 : 17:36:38 [Permalink]
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YO! Let's retrace Ms. Klein's summation:
"The same pay-to-be-saved logic governs this entire new sector of country club disaster management. There is, of course, another principle that could guide our collective responses in a disaster-prone world: the simple conviction that every life is of equal value.
"For anyone out there who still believes in that wild idea, the time has urgently arrived to protect the principle."
Orwellingly Yurz Sez to Marfknox and Dood:
Getting really good healthcare for ALL Americans, through higher taxes on wealth, etc,.should be employed. Money left over for the richest of the rich can be used to buy country club healthcare by them. That's just damn fine and dandy. But not until there is something in place for which Naomi argues in her clear-headed article. I once read in a big black book, it's the Christian thing to do.
Good bridges around San Franciso are used by everybody who drives a car in the Bay Area; whether it might be a 1987 Ford or a 2008 BMW. I can't separate bridges and healthcare. Bay Area people need good bridges and healthcare in order to carry on their way of life in decent fashion. Hello!
How can saying that be subversive, I ask you?
OY!
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"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty
"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde
"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
| Edited by - Orwellingly Yurz on 11/16/2007 17:45:05 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2007 : 20:05:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
On a related note, my husband recently told me about a new wing of luxury health care opening up at his hospital. When he found the pamphlet for it he was totally disgusted and enraged. When he expressed his feelings to coworkers, they seemed completely perplexed. Here's a link:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/20070903_Luxury_hotel_-_or_hospital_.html
| At a time when much of the political world is focused on helping people afford medical care at all, big-name hospitals are finding that some patients will pay extra for privacy, peace and perks. At the Methodist Hospital in Houston, some pay a whopping $1,339 extra a day for a large suite in the Sue Fondren Trammell Pavilion. Because people with that kind of money are more likely than the rest of us to make donations, hospitals have an incentive to keep them cozy. |
Because we all know that Reaganomics works so well the first time.
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I would hope that hospitals catering to the rich would price their luxurious suites very high, and use the extra income to help the medical needs of the poorer patients. But hope is not expectation.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2007 : 20:25:16 [Permalink]
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OY asked:
How can saying that be subversive, I ask you?
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Oh, its not subversive, or even wrong. I tend to agree, but the problem here is one of government, not of individuals or companies.
I can't blame a hospital for offering a premium service. I can, however, blame our government for leaving people hanging in the wind to die preventable deaths due to lack of insurance.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Rapture Capitalism
