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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/28/2007 : 07:58:28
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Those of us who regularly visit Dembski's Uncommon Descent hoo-hah and The Panda's Thumb have become familiar with Ms. O'Leary. She is a Canadian journalist who writes mainly on religion and apologetics, and has become a regular at UD. Her latest, brief screed concerns our vermiform appendix and how it is not vestigial at all, a topic that has been mercifully but mercilessly euthanized both here and at The Thumb, as well as elsewhere, a fair while ago. So I wondered; why resurrect it at this late date? Does she just want to write something but can't find a topic, so she's falling back on silliness?
Which is exactly what I'm doing right now....
But, for those who haven't seen it, let's take it from the top: Vestigial organs, anyone? The humble appendix begs to differ
O'Leary
Despite its name - which means “hanger on” - the human appendix works for a living, according to recent research (helping kill germs).
As British physicist David Tyler notes, despite the claim of evolutionary biologists from Darwin to the present day that the appendix is junk left over from evolution, the appendix actually has a function - and the current crop of evolutionary biologists try hard to avoid acknowledging that they were wrong about that.
He comments,
It might be hoped that Darwinian evolutionary biologists would acknowledge that errors have been made; that Darwin's claim for the appendix being useless was a claim made from ignorance rather than knowledge; that their theory had coloured their understanding of the data; etc. But no - what we get is this response to the new research: “The idea “seems by far the most likely” explanation for the function of the appendix, said Brandeis University biochemistry professor Douglas Theobald. “It makes evolutionary sense.”In other words, whatever turns out to be the case, their theory got it right, even though their theory got it completely wrong. Or, as Tyler puts it
It should be remembered that functionality was the prediction of biologists with a creation or design mentality, and it was not the prediction of evolutionary biologists. On this occasion, the people with a design perspective were right and the Darwinians were wrong. Let's remember this next time we hear creation or ID being decried as being unable to make any scientific predictions!
But who said science predictions had to be correct? All they have to be is … made by convinced Darwinists!
They are somewhat like a Gucci label, I guess. They confer or withhold status, NOT useful information about the design of life.
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Indeed. Now, let's have a look at the offending organ from the point of view of science: The vermiform appendix: background info
In humans, the vermiform appendix is a small, finger-sized structure, found at the end of our small caecum and located near the beginning of the large intestine (Fawcett and Raviola 1994, p. 636; Oxford Companion to the Body 2001, pp. 42-43; Williams and Myers 1994). The adjective "vermiform" literally means "worm-like" and reflects the narrow, elongated shape of this intestinal appendage. The appendix is typically between two and eight inches long, but its length can vary from less than an inch (when present) to over a foot. The appendix is longest in childhood and gradually shrinks throughout adult life. The wall of the appendix is composed of all layers typical of the intestine, but it is thickened and contains a concentration of
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 11/28/2007 : 08:29:51 [Permalink]
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Well, naturally, I tried commenting again, and again my comments don't show up.
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In regards to post 28 by Bettawrekonize about the meaning of the word vestigial:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#vestiges_criticisms
"Useful organs, however little they may be developed, unless we have reason to suppose that they were formerly more highly developed, ought not to be considered as rudimentary." (Darwin 1859, emphasis added)
"An organ, serving for two purposes, may become rudimentary or utterly aborted for one, even the more important purpose, and remain perfectly efficient for the other. Thus, in plants, the office of the pistil is to allow the pollen-tubes to reach the ovules protected in the ovarium at its base. The pistil consists of a stigma supported on the style; but in some Compositae, the male florets, which of course cannot be fecundated, have a pistil, which is in a rudimentary state, for it is not crowned with a stigma; but the style remains well developed, and is clothed with hairs as in other compositae, for the purpose of brushing the pollen out of the surrounding anthers. Again, an organ may become rudimentary for its proper purpose, and be used for a distinct object: in certain fish the swim-bladder seems to be rudimentary for its proper function of giving buoyancy, but has become converted into a nascent breathing organ or lung. Other similar instances could be given." (Darwin 1859 [see text]; also Darwin 1872, p. 602, emphasis added)
"Rudimentary organs, on the other hand, are either quite useless, such as teeth which never cut through the gums, or almost useless, such as the wings of an ostrich, which serve merely as sails." (Darwin 1872, p. 603)
"... an organ rendered, during changed habits of life, useless or injurious for one purpose, might easily be modified and used for another purpose." (Darwin 1872, p. 603)
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Notice that he doesn't talk about them being so useless that natural selection doesn't act on them...besides, there are such things as mutations.
Now, as to post 47 by bornagain77 where he talks about Haeckel#8217;s Embryos...
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wells/haeckel.html
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 10:57:21 [Permalink]
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A few comments:
Ms. O'Leary quoted Mr. Tyler as saying:
| It might be hoped that Darwinian evolutionary biologists would acknowledge that errors have been made; |
He must be kidding. Creationists chiding scientists for not acknowledging errors? As if. The whole point of science is to be forever open to revision should better ideas and more evidence come along. I'd LOVE to see a quote of any actual scientist refusing to acknowledge there have been errors in the study of evolutionary biology since Darwin. Outrageous!
Anyway, I agree with Ms. O'Leary; the appendix clearly has a purpose. And the facts are right there for all to see:
| The appendix is longest in childhood and gradually shrinks throughout adult life. |
And | The small opening to the appendix eventually closes in most people by middle age. |
It doesn't take a genius to recognize the connection between the appendix and aging. As the appendix gets shorter and closes, people get older and eventually die. If they could find a way to maintain and vitalize the appendix, people might live forever. Vestigual indeed.
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-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 11/28/2007 10:58:06 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 12:00:13 [Permalink]
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Heh, the appendix does indeed have a valuable purpose. "It helps keep surgeons off the unemployment roles."
Don't remember where I read that..... Due to my appendix, which was cruelly amputated in childhood, senile dementia creeps ever closer, ever closer.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 12:15:13 [Permalink]
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| Yep they butchered me as well, I got some gifts out of the deal though and a cool scar to pick up chicks with, as we all know scars are like chocolate covered Brad Pitt to women. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 12:58:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
...as we all know scars are like chocolate covered Brad Pitt to women. |
The young man's mantra to stupidity: "Glory is forever. Pain is temporary. Chicks dig scars." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 13:09:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Yep they butchered me as well, I got some gifts out of the deal though and a cool scar to pick up chicks with, as we all know scars are like chocolate covered Brad Pitt to women.
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I must be missing something. I all but resemble a walking zipper but they still keep running away and/or calling the cops. What am I doing wrong?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2007 : 23:58:09 [Permalink]
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No more appendectomies for Creationists!
The default position of medical science must be that Creationists consider the appendix a vital, God-designed, germ-killing organ. Removing it from Creationists would be a violation of their religious rights.
If this wonder of germ-fighting then ruptures and spews its contents throughout the abdominal cavity of a Creationist, doctors must assume that it is simply spreading its healing effects more widely. If the patient dies of peritonitis, that is simply proof that the Creationist wasn't really sincere, and God wanted them in Hell.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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It is to laugh: O'Leary & the Appendix Redux.
