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Halcyon Dayz
New Member
Netherlands
27 Posts |
 Posted - 11/30/2007 : 14:40:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
If I could control women I would make them think of the consequences before they have sex. If you have sex using contraception or not you need to understand that a child could be created and have the means to take care of the child. |
You mean sex-ed.
Brilliant idea.
The only practical thing that can (and will) reduce the number of abortions.
There's a catch though... |
An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it. -- Don Marquis
"The universe is a strange, practically incomprehensible place. But that is how things are, and no amount of wishing that things are really the way we perceive them will change that." - The Black Cat |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 11/30/2007 : 14:56:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I am not talking about rape at this time since it is a small
fraction of abortions. |
But you were talking about showing ultrasounds to mothers and fathers, even though only a small fraction of abortions are performed at a time when they'd see anything vaguely human.| I am talking about a choice women make to have sex. |
It takes two, Robb. Besides, an alarmingly large percentage of abortions are done on those who are young enough that we don't trust them to make good choices about drinking alcohol, so we say they cannot. They do anyway. To think that they're going to make better choices about sex, in light of all the evidence that they won't, is insane. To force them to live with the consequences of an act when we've determined that they can't be trusted to properly weigh the consequences of similar acts is just as insane. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 18:42:42 [Permalink]
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It might also be pointed out that males, especially though not exclusively young males, sometimes force sex upon a young female, and only afterward get her to "consent." A young person is very suggestible. This tends to blur the lines of what could have, legitimately, been reported as rape. So, in effect, there are probably many more young teens who become pregnant by rape than the statistics may suggest.
The idea of requiring that a biological father (who may be the rapist or seducer of a vulnerable teen) view an ultrasound of a fetus prior to an abortion is ridiculous and offensive. The choice of what to do should be solely that of the expectant mother. Likewise, any viewing of the fetus by anyone besides the physician should be at the voluntary discretion of the potential mother. The idea of the state forcing a seduced or even raped girl or woman to let someone peer into her womb is completely repugnant.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 22:22:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Does anybody support that mothers and fathers should be required to see an ultrasound of the fetus before they can perform an abortion?
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No, I do not.
It is an unnecessary medical procedure which
1) has no medical benifit for the mother or child
2) Is not usually done before the 4th month of pregnancy
3) Ties up valuable diagnostic equipment for no good medical reason
4) inflicts additional financial pain on a subject who is most likely economically disadvantaged
Ultrasounds are used for more than just examining fetuses. They are also used to break up kidney stones, image tumors, and examine hernias in an non-evasive way. Yet you want to tie up this equipment to forward some point.
So, you want me to support an unnecessary medical procedure just to elicit some emotional trauma on someone who already has come to a decision. Of course, this also ignores where the father is unknown, cases of rape and incest, and where the procedure is necessary to save the mothers life.
You also realize that the fetus in the first trimester is about the shape of a peanut.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2007 : 06:53:14 [Permalink]
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I'd rather spend the money to educate young adults about sex, including the types of birth control and how to use them. This will do more to reduce the number of abortions than any other emotional platitudes that are currently in use, and the one suggested here.
Education and information with tempered guidance is always the better path. "Just say no" and other emotional platitudes are a joke and only work in la-la land where other mythical creatures exist. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 12/01/2007 06:54:14 |
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Halcyon Dayz
New Member
Netherlands
27 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2007 : 08:34:12 [Permalink]
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And there is the catch...
The same people that want to outlaw abortion would get their panties in a bunch
if someone tried to introduce REAL sex education. |
An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it. -- Don Marquis
"The universe is a strange, practically incomprehensible place. But that is how things are, and no amount of wishing that things are really the way we perceive them will change that." - The Black Cat |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2007 : 01:24:51 [Permalink]
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Not going to answer me Robb?
Well, thats not suprising.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2007 : 08:10:05 [Permalink]
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While we are at it, we could tell the people that God is the biggest abortionist of all. 25% of all human eggs are spontaneously aborted before the 6th week. In woman over 45, 75% of all pregnancies end in a spontaneous abortion. There are many reasons why this happens, but sometimes it happens for no reason that we know of. Therefore, God did it.
[source] |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 12:46:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Halcyon Dayz
Originally posted by Robb
If I could control women I would make them think of the consequences before they have sex. If you have sex using contraception or not you need to understand that a child could be created and have the means to take care of the child. |
You mean sex-ed.
Brilliant idea.
The only practical thing that can (and will) reduce the number of abortions.
There's a catch though...
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Yes I do support sex education. But I would like to be present during the teaching, something the elementary school my daughter goes to does not allow. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 12:51:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
But you were talking about showing ultrasounds to mothers and fathers, even though only a small fraction of abortions are performed at a time when they'd see anything vaguely human. |
Does it matter what it looks like?
It takes two, Robb. Besides, an alarmingly large percentage of abortions are done on those who are young enough that we don't trust them to make good choices about drinking alcohol, so we say they cannot. They do anyway. To think that they're going to make better choices about sex, in light of all the evidence that they won't, is insane. To force them to live with the consequences of an act when we've determined that they can't be trusted to properly weigh the consequences of similar acts is just as insane.
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What is insane is that in some area's of the country girls who you admit do not make sound judgements do not have to inform their caregivers (the people responsible for thier welfare) that they are going to have an abortion. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
| Edited by - Robb on 12/03/2007 12:52:15 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 12:53:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Robb
Does anybody support that mothers and fathers should be required to see an ultrasound of the fetus before they can perform an abortion?
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No, I do not.
It is an unnecessary medical procedure which
1) has no medical benifit for the mother or child
2) Is not usually done before the 4th month of pregnancy
3) Ties up valuable diagnostic equipment for no good medical reason
4) inflicts additional financial pain on a subject who is most likely economically disadvantaged
Ultrasounds are used for more than just examining fetuses. They are also used to break up kidney stones, image tumors, and examine hernias in an non-evasive way. Yet you want to tie up this equipment to forward some point.
So, you want me to support an unnecessary medical procedure just to elicit some emotional trauma on someone who already has come to a decision. Of course, this also ignores where the father is unknown, cases of rape and incest, and where the procedure is necessary to save the mothers life.
You also realize that the fetus in the first trimester is about the shape of a peanut.
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Yes, thanks for the information. It would not have to be the actual fetus. It could be a picture of one at how many weeks they are at. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 12:55:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
I'd rather spend the money to educate young adults about sex, including the types of birth control and how to use them. This will do more to reduce the number of abortions than any other emotional platitudes that are currently in use, and the one suggested here.
Education and information with tempered guidance is always the better path. "Just say no" and other emotional platitudes are a joke and only work in la-la land where other mythical creatures exist.
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I agree somewhat but what about education about the emotional aspects of sex along with the contraception and how to use them? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 12:58:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Of course, this also ignores where the father is unknown, cases of rape and incest, and where the procedure is necessary to save the mothers life.
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These cases constitute < 2% of all abortion cases. About 98% are due to a personal choice of some kind. These special cases should get special consideration. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 13:16:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Not going to answer me Robb?
Well, thats not suprising.
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 Surprise!
| Why, Robb, do you think it is ok to mandate something like this when the images and data are freely available to those who want them? |
I should clarify what I am saying. I am not saying take a new sonogram but show a picture of a sonogram of a typical fetus at how many weeks the mother is along.
That said, It is the same thing as when a county mandates a gang member tour the morgue as part of their sentence to show them exactly what they are involved with. I am NOT advocating showing any aborted matter. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 13:43:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Does it matter what it looks like? |
Absolutely. What's the point of showing the parents a dot? If they didn't already know what's going on, they wouldn't be seeking an abortion.| What is insane is that in some area's of the country girls who you admit do not make sound judgements do not have to inform their caregivers (the people responsible for thier welfare) that they are going to have an abortion. |
As soon as all such girls are protected from being beaten (or worse) for making a natural mistake, we can have this discussion. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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