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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2007 : 13:20:25 [Permalink]
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gorgo asked:
| Dude, why don't you "enlighten us" (since we're using non-offensive dialogue here) on why this is relevant? |
Its relevant because there is a huge ammount of opposition to this war out there in the international community. If this war was in fact considered illegal by any credible authority, don't you think that Iran (a UN member since 1945) and Syria (also a member since 1945) (and a half dozen others) would have at least brought the issue to the security council for consideration?
Isn't their anyone in the UN who has the moral fiber to stand up and argue that this war is illegal?
Or, more likely, none of them actually think it is illegal.
Which leaves you right back where you were in the last thread on this issue... pissing into the wind.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 13:56:59 [Permalink]
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 14:18:41 [Permalink]
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There really is no point trying to talk to you gorgo.
There is a process by which any member nation of the UN can bring issues to the security council for consideration.
Yes, the US and UK have a veto in the security council, so there is no chance that they will declare the war illegal.
But that isn't the point. If you thought the war was illegal, you'd take the formal measures to introduce the issue to the security council for consideration even if you knew they would not vote the way you think they should.
No member of the UN has done that, including Iran. The only thing done is political grandstanding and speeches.
Same for Venezuela and Chavez. Venezuela is even signatory to the ICC. Why haven't they brought the legality issue to the UN security council or petitioned the ICC to rule on the legality of the Iraq war? Chaves has made it clear that he despises G. Bush, and has called the war illegal in public also. If he really thought it was illegal why wouldn't he be taking the steps to have it officially ruled on?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 19:26:58 [Permalink]
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Yeah, nothing offensive at all about you. You're just a victim of a world full of assholes and pricks, skulking in alleyways and shadows all around you.
I do understand your point, though. You base international law on the domestic law of a terrorist state. If Saddam wasn't prosecuted by his own courts, then he did not violate international law. It was fine that he attacked Iran and Kuwait.
I also understand your point that international law doesn't exist if Iran doesn't take legal measures against a country. You're not "pissing in the wind" with that.
Thanks for "enlightening us," Dude. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 12/10/2007 19:28:48 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 20:16:05 [Permalink]
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Dude got a point though.
What's the point of having a law if no prosecutor have the balls to charge anyone with breaking it? As long as America has as much political, military, and economical clout as it has, not many countries dare go against it.
But using it for ridiculous reasons like the Iraq war, the Bush administration is wasting political capital and good will like no one before...
There is a reason why European countries puts America higher than both Iraq and North Korea on the most dangerous country and the greatest threat to world peace. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 12/10/2007 20:22:55 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 20:19:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Dude got a point though.
What's the point of having a law if no prosecutor have the balls to charge anyone with breaking it? As long as America has as much political and economical clout as it has, not many countries dare go against it.
But using it for ridiculous reasons like the Iraq war, the Bush administration is wasting political capital and good will like no one before...
There is a reason why European countries puts America higher than both Iraq and North Korea on the most dangerous country and the greatest threat to world peace.
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That's not Dude's point, that's my point. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 22:31:38 [Permalink]
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gorgo said:
| I do understand your point, though. |
Obviously you don't.
As for the rest of your post, I await moderator intervention before I reply.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 04:03:31 [Permalink]
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There is a reason why European countries puts America higher than both Iraq and North Korea on the most dangerous country and the greatest threat to world peace.
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And while the U.S. is the most well financed terrorist organization on earth, some European countries are not far behind, like the U.K. France (and Canada) has been right there in the U.S. attack on Haiti, and Germany , or at least some part of Germany, led the fight to help tear apart Yugoslavia. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 04:06:37 [Permalink]
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Dude, why would Iran or anyone go to the trouble to make themselves bigger enemies of the U.S. with no possible good coming out of it? Lighten up, here. Not everyone is your enemy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 09:23:16 [Permalink]
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Let me sum up Dude's position, as kindly as I can, as I see it, just so someone can clarify.
International law does not exist for Dude, unless two things happen:
1) The courts of the offending country prosecute the offenders, or
2)countries who are victims of the offending country somehow prosecute the offenders, even though to do such a thing would be futile, and would probably cause a greater backlash for them.
Is this wrong? What part of this is wrong? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 10:17:53 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, you act as if the issue of legality [of the Iraq war] is already a settled matter.
The reality is that by US and international laws the legality of the Iraq war is only questionable.
Your childishly false analogy of comparing the US legal system to that of Iraq's while Saddam was in power serves no purpose other than derailing argument. The US is obviously not Iraq, and no one is going to be abducted/tortured/killed for filing a lawsuit.
Your equally nonsensical assertion that: International law does not exist for Dude, unless two things happen:
1) The courts of the offending country prosecute the offenders, or
2)countries who are victims of the offending country somehow prosecute the offenders, even though to do such a thing would be futile, and would probably cause a greater backlash for them.
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...is nothing more than a calculated insult.
When matters of legality are questionable, as is the case with the Iraq war, then the way to have them setteled is by challenging them in a court!
The UN doesn't have the same standards as the US legal system, with regard to standing, in order to bring a complaint. With the threats Bush/Cheney have made against Iran it seems like a no-brainer that they would have requested the security council to review the legality of the Iraq invasion if they thought it was illegal, even though they know the security council would not rule in their favor.
The US courts are not owned/controlled by Bush/Cheney either. The handful of desertion cases now making their way through our legal system would LOVE to be able to say that the war was illegal. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 10:39:15 [Permalink]
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No. The U.S. courts are not controlled by Bush. But neither is foreign policy. That's neither here nor there. You are the one that said that it is the courts of the offending country that determine international law. Not me. Or I misunderstood. Remember when I asked you why your questions were relevant. Please explain why this is relevant.
Questionable? Not attacking other countries is what international law is about. What about that is questionable? What part of the U.N. Charter do you think only exists for "evil" countries, but not for the U.S.?
You are the one that brought up Iran. Do you think international law is dependent on Iran? What is your point? What part of the U.N. Charter do you think exists for Iran, but not for the U.S.? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 12/11/2007 10:40:26 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 10:59:51 [Permalink]
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even though they know the security council would not rule in their favor.
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Then I would be told, maybe not by you, that the UNSC had ruled against Iran, so therefore what the U.S. did was not a violation of international law.
I'd haul out exactly what the U.N. Charter says, and what happened at Nuremburg, and other arguments for the existence of international law, but that hasn't helped in the past. Tell me what you want from me. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 11:19:51 [Permalink]
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gorgo said:Then I would be told, maybe not by you, that the UNSC had ruled against Iran, so therefore what the U.S. did was not a violation of international law.
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And if the US and UK didn't recuse themselves from the vote, you have the opportunity to bring the accusation to the general assembly for consideration and vote (where the US is badly outnumbered and doesn't hold veto power), and maybe have the UN petition the ICC for a ruling as well.
But if the US and UK did recuse themselves from that security council vote, then you'd just have to live with it.
| I'd haul out exactly what the U.N. Charter says, and what happened at Nuremburg, and other arguments for the existence of international law, but that hasn't helped in the past. |
Again, you and the few legal experts who think the matter of legality is already a settled one are a tiny minority. Yet you continue to act as if your opinion on the matter is the only valid one and that all others are just wrong.
| Tell me what you want from me. |
For you to acknowledge that your minority opinion on the legality of the Iraq war does not mean that the issue is a settled matter of law. For you to realize that there is a ton of grey area here, even (especially when) when looking at what laws are applicable. For you to realize that "international law" isn't the concrete set of rules you seem to think it is, and that the very concept only holds up when a majority of the world agrees to abide by those laws. No sovereign nation is obligated to do that unless their own legal structure binds them to it (as ours would if we ratified a treaty).
The whole thing is light years away from the cut/dry black/white issue you are pretending it is Gorgo.
When you also consider that several channels are available, even to countries like Iran, to request and recieve a clear ruling on the legality of this war, and that no one (not one single nation in the UN or ICC) has officially requested such clarification, the obvious conclusion is that they don't actually think the Iraq war is illegal, or they don't think they can make a strong enough case for the illegality.
To claim they fear reprisal from the US is foolish at best. Clearly Iran doesn't, nor do any of our European allies.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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