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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  09:02:51  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BALI, Indonesia - An international team of scientists skeptical of man-made climate fears promoted by the UN and former Vice President Al Gore, descended on Bali this week to urge the world to "have the courage to do nothing" in response to UN demands.




Lord Christopher Monckton, a UK climate researcher, had a blunt message for UN climate conference participants on Monday.


"The UN conference is a complete waste of our time and your money and we should no longer pay the slightest attention to the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change,)"








"It is a circus here," agreed Australian scientist Dr. David Evans. Evans is making scientific presentations to delegates and journalists at the conference revealing the latest peer-reviewed studies that refute the UN's climate claims.

"This is the most lavish conference I have ever been to, but I am only a scientist and I actually only go to the science conferences," Evans said, noting the luxury of the tropical resort. (Note: An analysis by Bloomberg News on December 6 found: "Government officials and activists flying to Bali, Indonesia, for the United Nations meeting on climate change will cause as much pollution as 20,000 cars in a year." -

Evans, a mathematician who did carbon accounting for the Australian government, recently converted to a skeptical scientist about man-made global warming after reviewing the new scientific studies.

"We now have quite a lot of evidence that carbon emissions definitely don't cause global warming. We have the missing [human] signature [in the atmosphere], we have the IPCC models being wrong and we have the lack of a temperature going up the last 5 years," Evans said in an interview with the Inhofe EPW Press Blog. Evans authored a November 28 2007 paper "Carbon Emissions Don't Cause Global Warming."

Evans touted a new peer-reviewed study by a team of scientists appearing in the December 2007 issue of the International Journal of Climatology of the Royal Meteorological Society which found "Warming is naturally caused and shows no human influence."

http://tinyurl.com/2593k6

"Most of the people here have jobs that are very well paid and they depend on the idea that carbon emissions cause global warming. They are not going to be very receptive to the idea that well actually the science has gone off in a different direction," Evans explained.

Evans, who believes the UN has heavily politicized science, warned there is going to be a "dangerous time for science" ahead.

"We have a split here. Official science driven by politics, money and power, goes in one direction. Unofficial science, which is more determined by what is actually happening with the [climate] data, has now started to move off in a different direction" away from fears of a man-made climate crisis, Evans explained.

"The two are splitting. This is always a dangerous time for science and a dangerous time for politics. Historically science always wins these battles but there can be a lot of causalities and a lot of time in between," he concluded.







UN IPCC reviewer and climate researcher Dr. Vincent Gray of New Zealand, an expert reviewer on every single draft of the IPCC reports since its inception going back to 1990, had a clear message to UN participants.


"There is no evidence that carbon dioxide increases are having any affect whatsoever on the climate," Gray, who shares in the Nobel Prize awarded to the UN IPCC, explained.

"All the science of the IPCC is unsound. I have come to this conclusion after a very long time. If you examine every single proposition of the IPCC thoroughly, you find that the science somewhere fails," Gray, who wrote the book "The Greenhouse Delusion: A Critique of "Climate Change 2001," said.

"It fails not only from the data, but it fails in the statistics, and the mathematics," he added.





New Zealander Bryan Leland of the International Climate Science Coalition warned participants that all the UN promoted discussions of "carbon trading" should be viewed with suspicion.

"I am an energy engineer and I know something about electricity trading and I know enough about carbon trading and the inaccuracies of carbon trading to know that carbon trading is more about fraud than it is about anything else," Leland said.

"We should probably ask why we have 10,000 people here [in Bali] in a futile attempt to ‘solve' a [climate] problem that probably does not exist," Leland added.




Owen McShane, the head of the International Climate Science Coalition, also worried that a UN promoted global approach to economics would mean financial ruin for many nations.

"I don't think this conference can actually achieve anything because it seems to be saying that we are going to draw up one protocol for every country in the world to follow," McShane said.

"Now these countries and these economies are so diverse that trying to presume you can put all of these feet into one shoe will simply not work," McShane explained.

"Having the same set of rules apply to everybody will blow some economies apart totally while others will be unscathed and I wouldn't be surprised if the ones who remain unscathed are the ones who write the rules," he added.





Professor Dr. William Alexander, emeritus of the University of Pretoria in South Africa and a former member of the United Nations Scientific and Technical Committee on Natural Disasters, warned poor nations and their residents that the UN policies could mean more poverty and thus more death.

"My message is specifically for the poor people of Africa. And there is nothing happening at this conference that can help them one little bit but there is the potential that they could be damaged," Alexander said.




http://tinyurl.com/ypfck4

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  09:09:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"We have a split here. Official science driven by politics, money and power, goes in one direction. Unofficial science, which is more determined by what is actually happening with the [climate] data, has now started to move off in a different direction" away from fears of a man-made climate crisis, Evans explained.
Um, the money and power is behind the majority of climate scientists? And these powerful, monied elite have what to gain, exactly, by collaborating with the vast majority of climate scientists to perpetuate this man made global warming farce????

-Chaloobi

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  09:35:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by chaloobi





Um, the money and power is behind the majority of climate scientists?


Um, yep.

And these powerful, monied elite have what to gain, exactly, by collaborating


More power and money... all in the name of combating MMGW. Just ask Al ($6K/minute) Gore.





with the vast majority of climate scientists to perpetuate this man made global warming farce????


With more research and temps not rising, as they were predicted too, it appears the majority is experiencing some defections.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  10:22:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I pity you Bill.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  10:34:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Christ. Four guys publish a study casting doubt on MMGW and the entire right wing world has a giant collective on-line orgasm. And suddenly this head-in-the-sand crowd loves science again.

Seriously. The only thing more predictable than that is the silence from the right-wingers when climate scientists get a look at the article and investigate their claims and refute the whole study.
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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  10:46:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, so MMGW is a huge international fraudulent money-making scheme involving the vast majority of the world's climate scientists? And the big scam is to get research grants? My god, these conspirators should take some lessons from the Afghan warlords, the Columbian cartels or Phizer - the money isn't in faking science guys, it's in DRUGS!

-Chaloobi

Edited by - chaloobi on 12/11/2007 10:48:05
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  10:51:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm. Inhofe's blog, eh?

I've got news for Inhofe, et al: Christopher Walter Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley is certainly not a climate scientist of any sort. Rather, until his retirement, he was little more than another shill.
Career

Media
In 1974 at the age of 22, Monckton joined the Yorkshire Post, where he worked as a reporter and leader-writer. From 1977 to 1978, he worked at Conservative Central Office as a press officer, becoming the editor of the Roman Catholic newspaper The Universe in 1979, then managing editor of The Sunday Telegraph Magazine in 1981. He joined the Evening Standard as a leader-writer in 1982.[1]


Politics
He returned to Conservative Central Office in late 1982, this time as a policy advisor for Margaret Thatcher.[2] In 1986, he became assistant editor of the newly established, and now defunct, newspaper Today. He was a consulting editor for the Evening Standard from 1987 to 1992 and was its chief leader-writer from 1990 to 1992.[1]

Although he has in the past stated that he is "a member of the Upper House of the United Kingdom legislature,"[3] Monckton has never been a member of either the House of Lords or the House of Commons. The 1997 reform of the House of Lords ended the right of all but 92 hereditary peers to sit in Parliament, with the remaining 92 being elected by fellow peers within their party caucus. Monckton was one of 43 candidates for a Conservative seat in the House of Lords in a March 2007 by-election caused by the deaths of two peers, but received no votes.[4] He has been highly critical of the way that the Lords has been reformed, describing the by-election procedure as "a bizarre constitutional abortion." [5]


Business consultancy
In 1987, Monckton founded a consultancy company, Christopher Monckton Ltd., where he served as a director until he retired because of ill health in 2006. In 1999, he created and published the Eternity puzzle, a geometric puzzle which involved tiling a dodecagon with 209 irregularly shaped polygons called Polydrafters. A £1m prize was won after 18 months by two Cambridge mathematicians.[6] By that time, 500,000 puzzles had been sold. Monckton claimed that he had to sell his home, Crimonmogate, to pay the prize;[6] he later admitted he fabricated the story as a publicity stunt.[7] A second puzzle, Eternity II, was launched on 28 July 2007, with a prize of $2 million.
I did a little research on him earlier today after reading this choice, little piece of mendacity from Uncommon Descent. It sorta looks like Inhofe might have read it as well, dispelling some doubts that he actually has the ability to read.
Skeptical Scientists Urge World To ‘Have the Courage to Do Nothing' At UN Conference


BALI, Indonesia - An international team of scientists skeptical of man-made climate fears promoted by the UN and former Vice President Al Gore, descended on Bali this week to urge the world to “have the courage to do nothing” in response to UN demands.

Lord Christopher Monckton, a UK climate researcher, had a blunt message for UN climate conference participants on Monday.

“Climate change is a non problem. The right answer to a non problem is to have the courage to do nothing,” Monckton told participants.

“The UN conference is a complete waste of our time and your money and we should no longer pay the slightest attention to the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change,)” Monckton added. (LINK)

Monckton also noted that the UN has not been overly welcoming to the group of skeptica

"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  11:26:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally quoted by Bill scott

Lord Christopher Monckton, a UK climate researcher...
Looks like he's actually a journalist and business consultant, retired.
...Dr. David Evans.
Once again, not trained as a climate scientist, but that doesn't matter because his arguments fail to address his claims.
...Dr. Vincent Gray...
Seems to mistake the failures of the IPCC for the failures of climate science, and has books to sell and a foundation to finance.
...Bryan Leland...
Can't find hardly anything on this guy, or his "International Climate Science Coalition." But he self-describes as not a climate expert.
Owen McShane...
He's just worried about climate change's effect on various countries' economies. As is "Professor Dr. William Alexander." These guys, of course, aren't actually denying AGW, but just saying that the UN policies could hurt lots of people. I agree that they could, just as much as any other UN policy can.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  12:17:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Let's face it; global warming, man-made or otherwise, will put a hurtin'-for-certain on virtually all of the world's economies. Agriculture practices will have to change and fisheries will be even more depleted than they have recently become. Coastal cities such as Miami & NYC will suffer damage to water & sewage systems, assuming that they aren't altogether flooded. Desertification (is that really a word? I read somewhere that it was) will spread over arable lands causing famine and ultimately warfare. The long and short of it is that warming is happening and steps other than hyperbole from political idiots with corporate ties need to be taken soonist.

Will any be taken? Judging from our known track record, I'd tend to bet on the hyperbole.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  13:00:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Cuneiformist



Christ.


No Bill.


Four guys publish a study casting doubt on MMGW and the entire right wing world has a giant collective on-line orgasm.


I don't know about the whole right wing hypothesis but I, and the piece, were referring to the scientists who agreed with those that cast doubt.

Here is the study of doubt:

<http://tinyurl.com/2593k6>



Here is a link to some of the climate scientists who support the doubt:

<http://tinyurl.com/ypfck4>



And suddenly this head-in-the-sand crowd loves science again.


Again? It appears that we just love different sciences. I prefer the "Unofficial" science, which is more determined by what is actually happening with the [climate] data, while you seem to prefer "Official" science driven by politics, the U.N., money and power, and Al Gore.








Seriously. The only thing more predictable than that is the silence from the right-wingers when climate scientists get a look at the article and investigate their claims and refute the whole study.


The only thing more predictable then that are the failed predictions of the MMGW crowd for warming temps, unprecedented numbers of hurricanes, polar bears committing suicide etc...

And again, it appears the article (<http://tinyurl.com/2593k6>) was investigated by climate scientists and here is what they have to say: (<http://tinyurl.com/ypfck4>)







"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  13:03:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by chaloobi

the money isn't in faking science guys, it's in DRUGS!


I don't know. $6K/minute is tuff to beat, even when selling crack to the kids.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  13:19:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.




Lord Christopher Monckton, a UK climate researcher...
Looks like he's actually a journalist and business consultant , retired.


Which does nothing to negate his claim:

"The UN conference is a complete waste of our time and your money and we should no longer pay the slightest attention to the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change,)"

The conference is a waste of time and money. Not to mention the carbon foot print it will leave. At least they are giving away free carbon credits in the door prize drawing.









...Dr. David Evans.
Once again, not trained as a climate scientist , but that doesn't matter because his arguments fail to address his claims.


So the global temps have went up the predicted amount or greater over the last 5 years?

...Dr. Vincent Gray...
Seems to mistake the failures of the IPCC for the failures of climate science,


It is irrelevant what the IPCC or the climate science people say when compared to hard data such as tide gauges. What did the tide gauges show according to your article? The sea level around New Zealand is not rising, much to the dismay of many of the MMGW proliferates.





and has books to sell and a foundation to finance.


As if Al has no books or movies to finance and/or push. $6K/minute ain't bad.


Owen McShane...
He's just worried about climate change's effect on various countries' economies. As is "Professor Dr. William Alexander." These guys, of course, aren't actually denying AGW, but just saying that the UN policies could hurt lots of people. I agree that they could, just as much as any other UN policy can.


Well even if they deny AGW or not the UN policies are what scare the bajebas out of us deniers. What has the UN been involved in that they have got right? Under the guise of combating AGW they are going to over step their bounds of likes which we have yet to see. I mean seriously, if Al Gore wants to jet set the world preaching his AGW message and owning but not living in a 10,000 sq/ft home and then buy carbon credits to offset his huge carbon footprint then more power to him. I have no problem with this. What I have a problem with is the UN running wild with their new lighting rod and causing the faithful to create such insanity as the baby tax. http://tinyurl.com/2got6x And you think this has nothing to do with money? A XXXXXXX baby tax and carbon credit charge for having a kid! Wake up friend wake up

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  13:31:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have no problem with a baby tax. Too many damn people on this planet already.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  13:41:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott

Originally posted by chaloobi

the money isn't in faking science guys, it's in DRUGS!


I don't know. $6K/minute is tuff to beat, even when selling crack to the kids.
But this is a conspiracy that involves tens of thousands of climate science professionals, activists, and politicians around the world. Does Al Gore share his earnings for a 30 minute presentation with all of them? Or do they get a similar amount per minute for their work too?

I'm wondering if this is just an expression of envy or resentment for another man's earnings power? Or do you honestly believe that anyone who advocates an important issue should do it for nothing even if people are willing to pay him to speak? Al Gore's been quite a successful businessman since his bid for president, should he give all that money away too? Is it impossible to be very rich and still be a strong advocate for the nation to do something about global warming? Do you feel like you ought to give away what money you have to the cause of undermining climate science if you really believe in it?

-Chaloobi

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  13:51:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by pleco

I have no problem with a baby tax. Too many damn people on this planet already.


Is this your opinion or were you going to referance something?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2007 :  14:19:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by chaloobi



But this is a conspiracy that involves tens of thousands of climate science professionals, activists, and politicians around the world. Does Al Gore share his earnings for a 30 minute presentation with all of them? Or do they get a similar amount per minute for their work too?


So are you saying that of the tens of thousands of professionals, activists, and politicians who proliferate AGW Al Gore is the only one who gets fees and/or research money/grants or kickbacks?



I'm wondering if this is just an expression of envy or resentment for another man's earnings power?


No envy. If Al wants to preach his message to the faithful and then they open up their pocket books for Al then more power to him. This is America. What I have a problem with is when the faithful start dreaming up harebrained ideas on how I should pay a tax and carbon credit for my child, my car, my house, and my cow to help offset all the carbon that Al is pumping out of the back of his private jet and that which comes from his 10,000 sq'ft mansion that he does not live in. Making $6K/minute I can see how Al does not have a problem paying his carbon credit.








Or do you honestly believe that anyone who advocates an important issue should do it for nothing even if people are willing to pay him to speak?


Well at least you now acknowledge that there is big money to be made pushing this stuff.


Al Gore's been quite a successful businessman since his bid for president, should he give all that money away too? Is it impossible to be very rich and still be a strong advocate for the nation to do something about global warming?


It is difficult. It is hard for us deniers to accept Al's message of personal sacrifice for the cause when he grabs his check after the speech and jumps into his private gas guzzling jet and flies over his 10,000 sq/ft mansion on his way to the next presentation.


Do you feel like you ought to give away what money you have to the cause of undermining climate science if you really believe in it?


No. But if I made $6K/minute I might. And I would give my anti-AGW speech for only $2K/minute and give the rest back to the cause. I would even fly commercial to my next speech just to save the jet fuel.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Edited by - Bill scott on 12/11/2007 14:25:46
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