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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
 Posted - 12/21/2007 : 00:12:51
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Torture chamber found in Iraq
BAGHDAD - Blood-splotches on walls, chains hanging from a ceiling and swords on the killing floor — the artifacts left a disturbing tale of brutalities inside a suspected al-Qaida in Iraq torture chamber. But there was yet another chilling fact outside the dirt-floor dungeon. Villagers say they knew about the torment but were too intimidated by extremists to tell authorities until now.
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Stories such as these — claims of insurgent abuses and the silence of frightened Iraqis — have emerged with increasing frequency and clarity recently as U.S.-led forces push deeper into former extremist fiefdoms and forge alliances with tribes seeking to reclaim their regions.
The reports and tips now pouring in build a harrowing portrait of rule under al-Qaida and its backers: mass graves, ruthless punishments, self-styled Islamic courts ordering summary executions. |
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071220/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_torture_chamber
Sickening!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 01:05:38 [Permalink]
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A consequence of the US invasion....
Yep. Sickening is right.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 10:10:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
A consequence of the US invasion....
Yep. Sickening is right.
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These people never killed anyone before the US invasion? What you are saying is equivalent to blaming the victim of a rape for the rape itself. (She was dressed like a prostitute so she had it coming etc.) |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 10:32:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
What you are saying is equivalent to blaming the victim of a rape for the rape itself. (She was dressed like a prostitute so she had it coming etc.)
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I can't see that. Saying that U.S. military involvement in Iraq has increased the level of brutality of terrorist elements is in no sense a condemnation of the victims of that brutality. Or are you somehow trying to portray the U.S. as the rape victim? I honestly cannot follow your argument. Perhaps you should explain.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 15:28:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
I can't see that. Saying that U.S. military involvement in Iraq has increased the level of brutality of terrorist elements is in no sense a condemnation of the victims of that brutality. Or are you somehow trying to portray the U.S. as the rape victim? I honestly cannot follow your argument. Perhaps you should explain.
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The rape victim analogy may not be perfect, but it doesn't make any sense to lay this on anyone except those who built and used these torture chambers. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 22:08:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Was there more or less torture in Iraq when Saddam was in power?
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That's a great question, but not the only important question. Also important is to note the trend. Will there be less torture next year than there was this year? |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 23:03:33 [Permalink]
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Robb said:
| These people never killed anyone before the US invasion? What you are saying is equivalent to blaming the victim of a rape for the rape itself. (She was dressed like a prostitute so she had it coming etc.) |
You know, I honestly felt sorry for you when I read that.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 21:01:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
A consequence of the US invasion....
Yep. Sickening is right. |
Why do you say these torture rooms are a consequence of US occupation? The article states that one had been in existence for about a year, but a causative relationship is still tough to show.
Mainly, the article says that US troops find more of these rooms as they continue to look. You know that doesn't mean they were only here recently.
Keep in mind, Dude, I'm not disagreeing with you: I would just like to see your reasoning. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 22:02:45 [Permalink]
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B10 asks:
Why do you say these torture rooms are a consequence of US occupation? The article states that one had been in existence for about a year, but a causative relationship is still tough to show.
Mainly, the article says that US troops find more of these rooms as they continue to look. You know that doesn't mean they were only here recently.
Keep in mind, Dude, I'm not disagreeing with you: I would just like to see your reasoning. |
Because al-qaida in Iraq didn't exist until some time after our invasion and dispersal of the Iraqi military.
From the OP-
the artifacts left a disturbing tale of brutalities inside a suspected al-Qaida in Iraq torture chamber.
and:
The reports and tips now pouring in build a harrowing portrait of rule under al-Qaida
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I don't dispute that Saddam tortured/killed etc, but al-qaida didn't exist there until we went in with 1/5th the troops needed to secure the country.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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More torture in Iraq!
