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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  09:06:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by hoviariel

yes i am , but i am not a fanatic, and i ,for one, need to ask, is it logical to think that the universe came by chance and that our minds, which are more complex than the most computer, or genetics, or how a single cell can become a multicellular organism are all by chance.
oh and by the way, charles darwin once said:

"NOT ONE CHANGE OF SPECIES INTO ANOTHER IS ON RECORD. We cannot
prove that a single species has ever changed." - Charles Darwin

and why is it that there is no record of a human civilization dating back more than 5K
Yes, but Darwin was some 150 years ago and today, the evidence is overwhelming:
Transition from primitive bony fish to amphibians
Few people realize that the fish-amphibian transition was not a transition from water to land. It was a transition from fins to feet that took place in the water. The very first amphibians seem to have developed legs and feet to scud around on the bottom in the water, as some modern fish do, not to walk on land (see Edwards, 1989). This aquatic-feet stage meant the fins didn't have to change very quickly, the weight-bearing limb musculature didn't have to be very well developed, and the axial musculature didn't have to change at all. Recently found fragmented fossils from the middle Upper Devonian, and new discoveries of late Upper Devonian feet (see below), support this idea of an "aquatic feet" stage. Eventually, of course, amphibians did move onto the land. This involved attaching the pelvis more firmly to the spine, and separating the shoulder from the skull. Lungs were not a problem, since lungs are an ancient fish trait and were present already.
Oh, but there is evidence of civilizations dating back a long time before 5K:
7th millennium BC
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Millennia: 8th millennium BC - 7th millennium BC - 6th millennium BC

During the 7th millennium BC, agriculture spreads from Anatolia to the Balkans.

World population is essentially stable at around 5 million people, living mostly widely scattered across the globe in small hunting-gathering tribes. In the agricultural communities of the Middle East, the cow is domesticated and use of pottery grows common, spreading to Europe and South Asia, and the first metal (gold and copper) ornaments are made.
Depends upon your definition of "civilization," I suppose. But when you have agriculture and manufacturing, and art, even on a primitive scale; you have civilization.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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hoviariel
New Member

20 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  09:43:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send hoviariel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
have you ever sit down and take the time to ponder over some of the teachings of the evolutionists, for example: The evolutionists teach that a giraffe has a long neck because it "evolved" over millions of years as a result of the animal trying to reach the food high up in the trees with it's mouth. Evolutionists teach that the animal's neck grew as a means of survival. The absurdity of such bizarre conclusions is obvious to the thinking individual. If the animal had a short neck to begin with, then what did it eat for millions of years? Obviously it would have had to eat food from off the ground.



Furthermore, if the "natural selection" hypothesis held by the evolutionists is true, then why don't horses and zebras have long necks like the giraffe today? Why would only the giraffe have had a need to reach the trees for food? This question alone nullifies the entire idea of the survival of the fittest. What the evolutionists would lead us to believe just doesn't make sense, not common sense or scientific sense. Again, there is nothing scientific about evolution.

"Science" means "to study."

Evolution CANNOT be repeated, CANNOT be tested, CANNOT be observed, Cannot be studied...it is NOT science.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  10:12:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by hoviariel

have you ever sit down and take the time to ponder over some of the teachings of the evolutionists, for example: The evolutionists teach that a giraffe has a long neck because it "evolved" over millions of years as a result of the animal trying to reach the food high up in the trees with it's mouth. Evolutionists teach that the animal's neck grew as a means of survival. The absurdity of such bizarre conclusions is obvious to the thinking individual. If the animal had a short neck to begin with, then what did it eat for millions of years? Obviously it would have had to eat food from off the ground.
Many times. Here is a bit on giraffes:

Special anatomical, physiological or behavioral adaptations.
The long muscular necks were once thought to be explained by Darwin's Natural Selection theory, but are now said to have come about by sexual selection. The male giraffes use their neck and head to battle for a female in estrous. The weight of the weapon, the head, produces great momentum when being swung at the chest, ribs, legs and neck of their opponent. This act, called "necking", can cause great injury and even death. At one zoo in North America, a keeper accidentally allowed two males to get into the same pen with a female in heat. The smaller male was killed when his opponent punched a hole in his neck just below the ear, splintering a vertebrate and penetrating the spinal column. Experts seem to think that, because of this necking behavior, giraffes evolved through sexual selection. This also explains the fact that these animals spend 50 percent of their time grazing at bushes below their shoulder.


Did you know that Giraffes have only seven vertebrae in that neck?

Furthermore, if the "natural selection" hypothesis held by the evolutionists is true, then why don't horses and zebras have long necks like the giraffe today? Why would only the giraffe have had a need to reach the trees for food? This question alone nullifies the entire idea of the survival of the fittest. What the evolutionists would lead us to believe just doesn't make sense, not common sense or scientific sense. Again, there is nothing scientific about evolution.
The giraffe is a browser; equines are grazers. Their necks are exactly the right length.

"Science" means "to study."

Evolution CANNOT be repeated, CANNOT be tested, CANNOT be observed, Cannot be studied...it is NOT science.
The Theory of Evolution is tested every day both in the laboratory and the field. It is the most examined theory in science and has yet to be found wanting.

Evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology. It unites all the fields of biology under one theoretical umbrella. It is not a difficult concept, but very few people -- the majority of biologists included -- have a satisfactory grasp of it. One common mistake is believing that species can be arranged on an evolutionary ladder from bacteria through "lower" animals, to "higher" animals and, finally, up to man. Mistakes permeate popular science expositions of evolutionary biology. Mistakes even filter into biology journals and texts. For example, Lodish, et. al., in their cell biology text, proclaim, "It was Charles Darwin's great insight that organisms are all related in a great chain of being..." In fact, the idea of a great chain of being, which traces to Linnaeus, was overturned by Darwin's idea of common descent.

Misunderstandings about evolution are damaging to the study of evolution and biology as a whole. People who have a general interest in science are likely to dismiss evolution as a soft science after absorbing the pop science nonsense that abounds. The impression of it being a soft science is reinforced when biologists in unrelated fields speculate publicly about evolution.

This is a brief introduction to evolutionary biology. I attempt to explain basics of the theory of evolution and correct many of the misconceptions.







"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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hoviariel
New Member

20 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  10:41:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send hoviariel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
can evolution be repeated, and how can you test it?

oh, could you explianme the origin of life with evolution, i mean like how the big bang happened,or the primordial soup, or how the first cell came about or the first atom or the first amino acid
Edited by - hoviariel on 12/30/2007 11:57:39
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  12:40:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hoviariel asked:
oh, could you explianme the origin of life with evolution, i mean like how the big bang happened,or the primordial soup, or how the first cell came about or the first atom or the first amino acid

Abiogenesis is a different, if related, area of inquiry. We are just now developing the capability to adequately investigate the question of life's origin.

Our planet is a dynamic place, it's surface has changed in very profound ways over the last 4billion years. We know that the planet's original atmosphere was a reducing environment and that the emergence of life changed it into the oxidizing environment we have now, probably the result of photosynthetic archaea (stromatolites).

Some future expeditions to the distant parts of our solar system, with sophisticated instrumentation, may be able to provide better evidence and answer some of the questions. It will almost certainly give us a better look at the chemistry and composition of the early solar system(which will, at the least, give us more questions). Some of the old rocky moons and oort cloud objects are frozen examples of what the solar system looked like long ago.


As for testing evolution, there are many ways to do so. Have you ever heard of endogenous retroviruses? Or perhaps the investigation of human chromosome 2? These are some of the most compelling pieces of evidence for human evolution. Let me provide you with some short articles, written in plain language, that will help you understand the basics:
Retroviral insertions and an explanation of why they prove common descent.

Human chromosome 2 and why it proves a common human-chimp ancestor.

If you want an example of recent, and rapid, evolution then you should look up the species of flavobacterium that evolved an enzyme to digest nylon.

I can go on here, but thats probably enough for now. Read through it and feel free to ask any question you may have.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Edited by - Dude on 12/30/2007 12:44:06
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Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1264 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  18:32:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by hoviariel

can evolution be repeated, and how can you test it?

oh, could you explianme the origin of life with evolution, i mean like how the big bang happened,or the primordial soup, or how the first cell came about or the first atom or the first amino acid
This line of conversation is more fitting in our Creation/Evolution forum. If you are interested in continuing the conversation about religion here, I encourage you to do so.

Otherwise, I recommend you start another topic with these questions in the Creation/Evolution forum.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25997 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  20:06:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by hoviariel

have you ever sit down and take the time to ponder over some of the teachings of the evolutionists, for example: The evolutionists teach that a giraffe has a long neck because it "evolved" over millions of years as a result of the animal trying to reach the food high up in the trees with it's mouth. Evolutionists teach that the animal's neck grew as a means of survival.
That may be what you believe, but where did you learn it? I already asked you a similar question, and received no answer, but will you answer this one?
The absurdity of such bizarre conclusions is obvious to the thinking individual.
Aside from its radical adaptationist roots, what's absurd about it?
If the animal had a short neck to begin with, then what did it eat for millions of years? Obviously it would have had to eat food from off the ground.
And? The claim implied by your objection is that if evolution is true, then every animal should have a neck just long enough to reach its food, and no longer, but evolutionary theory makes no such prediction.
Furthermore, if the "natural selection" hypothesis held by the evolutionists is true, then why don't horses and zebras have long necks like the giraffe today? Why would only the giraffe have had a need to reach the trees for food? This question alone nullifies the entire idea of the survival of the fittest.
No, the question itself is "nullified" due to being based on an improper premise.
What the evolutionists would lead us to believe just doesn't make sense, not common sense or scientific sense.
Of course it doesn't make sense when you create a strawman out of it.
Again, there is nothing scientific about evolution.
You can create non-scientific garbage out of any science, but that doesn't negate the science itself, only your strawmen.
"Science" means "to study."
No, it does not. Science requires studying, but studying something doesn't make it science. People study astrology, but astrology isn't science.
Evolution CANNOT be repeated, CANNOT be tested, CANNOT be observed, Cannot be studied...it is NOT science.
You can repeat your all-caps negation all you like, but that won't make it come true.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2007 :  21:33:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by hoviariel

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh
wait, what have creationists done with mining?

oh and for hawks, what do you mean by "his is actually quite funny or sad" , because i only took the textus receptus part from the sites

Your claim was that "and all three (web pages) use history, science, critical thinking, and logic, rathar than just using faith and blind belief". Given that, for example, jesus-is-savior.com says
Evolutionists claim that man evolved over billions of years (that's billions with a "B"). If there were any truth to these false claims by unscrupulous scientists, then man's historical record should span back at least hundreds-of-thousands of years, if not millions.

your statement IS funny. Or sad.


METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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hoviariel
New Member

20 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  11:23:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send hoviariel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hehe
wow
i was a fanatic
just goes to show u how evangelicism blocks neural activity
i love being a theast
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  11:41:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by hoviariel

hehe
wow
i was a fanatic
just goes to show u how evangelicism blocks neural activity
i love being a theast

Welcome back hoviariel!

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  12:18:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nice to see you embracing the spirit of Easter and bringing this topic back from the dead

Welcome back!

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  12:38:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Huh? What? hoviariel? Where?

Damn, but it's been a while! Good to see you back, bro.

Speling Nazi hat on: it's theist, not theast.

Anyhow, looking forward to the discussion.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  21:52:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by hoviariel

hehe
wow
i was a fanatic
just goes to show u how evangelicism blocks neural activity
i love being a theast
That implies some interesting experiences. Please tell us more about this "change" of yours, hoviariel! And of course, welcome back to Skeptic Friends Network.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9669 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2010 :  01:27:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed, welcome back!

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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