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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2008 :  23:43:01  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm putting this into this forum, and not into Moonscape News or Humor, because I mean this seriously.

There really are good reasons to like Creationism. Here's three, for starters:

1. The humor.

Nowhere will you find so many liars, crazies, fools, and ignoramuses as among Creationists. Even the nicest person occasionally needs to laugh at his fellow man, and the Creos perform their clown-like service admirably. Everyone needs to feel superior sometimes. Creos make this reasonably easy and reliable.

2. The tuning of critical minds.

The Creationists use ever kind of rhetorical fallacy invented by mankind. Any scientist, historian, or simple intelligent layman should appreciate the wonderful and educational stress upon critical reasoning that Creationism provides.

They force us to sharpen our Occam Razors, and prepare us to look for flaws and deceptions in any extraordinary statement. If you've dealt with Creos, you're armed with the kind of thinking tools that make you ready to lay on against any other kind of woo-woos.

3. Creationism is destroying extremist fundamentalist religion.

By chaining their churches, deity and their entire "moral" philosophy to silly bronze-age myths including a "goddidit" Creation a mere few thousand years ago and Noah's Ark, they are dooming themselves.

In a world increasingly dependent upon science and technology, they have declared their scriptural absurdities to be "inerrant" and inseparable parts of their faith.

Since the Creos have associated their faith so deeply with these myths, it's only natural that when their followers discover see the absurdity of the myths, they will be inclined to throw out the baby Jesus with the Flood-water. Bashing religion is Creationism's finest service. Religion has all sorts of evil effects beyond "simply" dumping on science. War, terrorism, intercommunal hatreds, and all sorts of bigotry have been, and are, supported by fundamentalist religions.

Anyone have some other good things to say about Creationism?


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2008 :  02:41:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, it's a relatively harmless diversion soon to self destruct, as compared to Revisionist Islam - not harmless, not likely to self destruct, and worthy of a hell of a lot more attention and dialectical opposition than the non-violent babblings of the ID'ers and Creo-magnons!

These Islamic imbeciles are dangerous in a way that Cockeyed Christianity has not been for centuries! Bush-Cheney have enormously exacerbated the threat to civilization that these loonies pose, and I do not yet hear anything from either the Obama outposts or the Clinton camp as to a Plan! McCain, of course, has already said it -"Bomb Iran, bomb Iran"! He would have nukes going off in the Middle East within a year and be rolling around in an orgasm of military glory and patriotic sanctification as millions died!

I have no idea what the solution to this ever-growing Arab-Infidel political-cultural-theological-have and have-not conflict conundrum is. I do know that it may be a bigger immediate problem than even global warming is, it's not going to be solved by the application of any amount of military power, especially nuclear weapons; and that this country desperately needs Intelligence (of all kinds), Diplomacy (also of all kinds) and Foreign Policy Innovation - something beyond buy 'em, bully 'em and bomb 'em.

I sure as hell hope Obama is up to it, because it's looking more and more like he's likely to be The One!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2008 :  06:31:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What I like about them is the wild comedy routines they post on line. Dr. Jason Lisle should take his act to 'Vegas:

Can an Evolutionist Do Science?
Since science requires the biblical principle of uniformity (as well as a number of other biblical creation principles), it is rather amazing that one could be a scientist and also an evolutionist. And yet, there are scientists that profess to believe in evolution. How is this possible?

The answer is that evolutionists are able to do science only because they are inconsistent. They accept biblical principles such as uniformity, while simultaneously denying the Bible from which those principles are derived. Such inconsistency is common in secular thinking; secular scientists claim that the universe is not designed, but they do science as if the universe is designed and upheld by God in a uniform way. Evolutionists can do science only if they rely on biblical creation assumptions (such as uniformity) that are contrary to their professed belief in evolution.


Read on, read on. It gets even better!

Really, I couldn't make this stuff up, and I'm pretty good at it. The guy is a natural hoot!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 02/14/2008 06:37:19
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2008 :  08:08:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Filthy wrote:
Really, I couldn't make this stuff up, and I'm pretty good at it. The guy is a natural hoot!
You are good at it, and I suspect you do a bit of ghost-writing for those fellows.

Semiseriously, it a miracle that the fundy authoritarian mind which is incapable of intended humor can be so good the unintentional sort.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/14/2008 08:09:18
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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2008 :  08:36:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

3. Creationism is destroying extremist fundamentalist religion.

By chaining their churches, deity and their entire "moral" philosophy to silly bronze-age myths including a "goddidit" Creation a mere few thousand years ago and Noah's Ark, they are dooming themselves.
I disagree. I think the recent rise in Creationism, and the mistrust of the scientific community that goes with it, is a symptom of something else - the growth of, and growing acceptance of, fundamentalist religion as a political force. I see no good evidence indicating the surge in power these nuts have accumulated is flagging. The apparent support for the Democrats in the upcoming election is not a return to liberal ideals but a specific backlash against GW's exterme mismanagement of government affairs. When polls show the majority of Americans believe creationism over evolution, there's cause for concern. I think at this point this is just as likely to doom America to further and possibly exterme decline as it is to doom Christianity.

-Chaloobi

Edited by - chaloobi on 02/14/2008 08:38:03
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2008 :  08:54:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Dubya's mismanagement followed the script of the fundies and their plutocratic and military-adventurist allies in the NeoCon coalition that controls the GOP.

The 2006 elections signaled the failure of the NeoCons with the general public. McCain's apparent victory in getting the GOP nomination doesn't indicate the fundies are out of the GOP, but it does show them to be in disarray. Otherwise, they would have united under either Huckabee or Romney early on. McCain will have to kiss their kiesters, but it's almost certain he won't win in November.

The fundies can now hang onto the GOP for a few years, perhaps, but by doing so, they assure the Republicans are out of power.

I think a lot of young people have looked at the craziness and abuses of the fundies in recent years, noticed their control of the GOP, and have rejected both. It's all over but the shouting, for this theocratic power grab.

This goes deeper than Bush. In fact, the people know that, considering all the speculation as to whether he is Rove's or Cheney's puppet.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2008 :  09:42:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I tend to agree with Mooner's #3: Creationism is destroying extremist fundamentalist religion.

Chaloobi commented:
I disagree. I think the recent rise in Creationism, and the mistrust of the scientific community that goes with it, is a symptom of something else - the growth of, and growing acceptance of, fundamentalist religion as a political force. I see no good evidence indicating the surge in power these nuts have accumulated is flagging. The apparent support for the Democrats in the upcoming election is not a return to liberal ideals but a specific backlash against GW's exterme mismanagement of government affairs. When polls show the majority of Americans believe creationism over evolution, there's cause for concern. I think at this point this is just as likely to doom America to further and possibly exterme decline as it is to doom Christianity.


I might be too optimistic about this, but I think that freethought is winning the culture war. For one thing, the stats on how many people reject evolution and accept creationism includes people who are just passively ignorant and live in an environment where creationism (in a really loose and obscure sense) is generally accepted as obvious fact. Lots of those people aren't politically engaged at all, and lots of them would change their minds if they were actually confronted in some way and forced to think and learn about it. Stats also show that most people are not actively religious and that even as the adherents to fundamentalism grow, atheism, agnosticism, and nonreligion is also growing. What is shrinking is moderate religiosity. (Admittedly, the scary thing about this is that when two groups who are diametrically opposed to each other grow in strength, the potential for clash and conflict increases.)

But probably most importantly, as we've seen when fundamentalism creeps into government policy, these idiots' rejection of real science puts them at a huge disadvantage. Maybe my faith in Americans is misplaced, but I tend to think that when Americans realize that basing scientific and other policy on fundamentalism is hurting our livelihoods and country, we will throw the fundies out of government.

If anything is going to lead to a dramatic decline in quality of life, power, and influence in the United States, it is our economic policies and partisan squabbling, which deny the plain fucking reality that the country and its individual citizens being in this much debt is a very bad thing, that spending on commodities that are mostly produced outside of this country makes the problem worse in the long term even if it makes our economy look stronger in the short term, and that we're are already in the middle of a health care crisis that is going to get much much worse. These things have little to do with fundies.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2008 :  10:51:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Marf and Half, I hope you're right on the fundie decline thing, though I'm not optimistic myself. None of us science types are, right?

Marf, regarding partisan squabbling - based on what I've seen in the last 7 years, I very much prefer policy based on decisions that are vetted through intense squabbling to a united government knowing exactly what to do and roaring full speed ahead.

-Chaloobi

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2008 :  12:12:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
chaloobi wrote:
Marf, regarding partisan squabbling - based on what I've seen in the last 7 years, I very much prefer policy based on decisions that are vetted through intense squabbling to a united government knowing exactly what to do and roaring full speed ahead.
I see that point, however I am referring to how our government seems to just ignore longterm problems and solutions and always go for the short term because if they advocate anything that might hurt in the shorterm (but help a lot in the longterm) it is used against them by their enemies in the opposing party. So when the two parties work together, it is for stupid crap like this tax refund most of us are getting which won't do shit to help the economic problem we face and is really just another loan that our future selves and children will have to pay back.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2008 :  12:50:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox

chaloobi wrote:
Marf, regarding partisan squabbling - based on what I've seen in the last 7 years, I very much prefer policy based on decisions that are vetted through intense squabbling to a united government knowing exactly what to do and roaring full speed ahead.
I see that point, however I am referring to how our government seems to just ignore longterm problems and solutions and always go for the short term because if they advocate anything that might hurt in the shorterm (but help a lot in the longterm) it is used against them by their enemies in the opposing party. So when the two parties work together, it is for stupid crap like this tax refund most of us are getting which won't do shit to help the economic problem we face and is really just another loan that our future selves and children will have to pay back.

The short term thinking issue goes back to election reform. We have a system that more or less allows campaigns and their allies to spin a kernel of reality into damn near any nasty thing about their opponents they can think of and there's virtually no good way to find the truth. And even when you do find the truth, very often the damage is done and can't be fixed. How you reform that? I don't know - it's all freedom of speech, right?

Failing to fix the rampant dishonesty and shallow smearing, another solution would be longer terms. A ten year presidential term and congressional terms would mean longer term thinking by the government, right? More time to implement complex and longer term policy. But the other side of the coin is when you have really bad leadership, you're stuck with for that longer term. So then you have to think about safety valves - like make it easier to recall an elected official for bad performance. But then that could become a partisan weapon, and on and on.

Nothing is simple.

Regarding the tax refund as a solution to the recession, I it very disturbing how many economists think it would help, chiefly because I believe them. Our economy is so fragile it depends on the average citizen living check to check, spending everything they bring in, and then some, on materialist crap, in order just to keep functioning. It feels like a house of cards waiting for a breeze to me.

-Chaloobi

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2008 :  13:10:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Marf is right on this one, if anything they only seem stronger because they are yelling louder. With each day that has passed in the last century the data for evolution has only increased and the data against it remains constant and non-data like.
"Well it seems too improbable to be true"

Also I dont like the lumping of all creationists together, as they are a diverse lot, just like us. Many do believe in evolution, though God created evolution or goal-oriented evolution if you like. I can't lump them in with the YEC's, its too distasteful and disrespectful, akin to calling all atheists communists.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 02/14/2008 13:12:02
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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2008 :  14:05:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

I think Marf is right on this one, if anything they only seem stronger because they are yelling louder. With each day that has passed in the last century the data for evolution has only increased and the data against it remains constant and non-data like.
The data for evolution is, unfortunately, irrelevant. Which is the problem. It doesn't matter how much data you have if people are rejecting real science based on Faith and/or mistrust of the liberal elite scientific establishment that will lie, cheat and steal about everything from the toxicity of tail pipe exhause to climate warming to the age of the universe just to undercut God and make a few greedy bucks from bogus grants. This is the problem that worries me. Ignorance has always been there but it wasn't much of a problem when people of faith played in their own sandbox and generally everyone respected and trusted scientists of every stripe (except the mad kind).

But maybe I'm just a pessimist. There hasn't been much good news about anything for 7 years, you know. Especially for those of us living in Michigan.

-Chaloobi

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2008 :  19:00:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by chaloobi

Marf and Half, I hope you're right on the fundie decline thing, though I'm not optimistic myself. None of us science types are, right?

Marf, regarding partisan squabbling - based on what I've seen in the last 7 years, I very much prefer policy based on decisions that are vetted through intense squabbling to a united government knowing exactly what to do and roaring full speed ahead.
And politics ain't real science, even if something called "political science" is taught in schools. Prognostications about politics are pure guess-work based upon varying amounts of experience. But, Jeeze, I hope I'm right about the fundy decline!

I mostly agree with you, chaloobi, about wanting to see some real democratic squabbling for a chance, instead of marching lockstep in the general direction of fascism.

I sure agree about that tax tax refund, Marf. It's just a petty pandering to public greed, at a time we need to get our finances back in order. I'll cash my check with a guilty smile, but also with a feeling I've been a conspirator in robbing my daughter's generation.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2008 :  19:43:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, I like watching creationists implode. Especially at UD. They make such nice popping sounds. And then there's the sound of crunching bones as they eat their own. That's good, too.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2008 :  22:10:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

By the way, I like watching creationists implode. Especially at UD. They make such nice popping sounds. And then there's the sound of crunching bones as they eat their own. That's good, too.
Last night, I found for the first time quotes from DaveScot, as he ravaged Denyse O'Leary. I'd no idea how nasty these bozos could be to their own.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/14/2008 22:16:21
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BlueCollarScientist
New Member

23 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2008 :  03:32:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit BlueCollarScientist's Homepage Send BlueCollarScientist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I'd no idea how nasty these bozos could be to their own.


Yikes. I guess I'd never run across that either. I feel better - I'm a pretty strident writer, but now I feel quite civilized.

My favorite thing about creationism is how they load their minions with literally thirty seconds of talking points, and then send them into the audiences where I'm speaking (almost invariably about astronomy, not biology) to "confront" me with the "evidence" that "science" is a load of baloney.


http://bluecollarscientist.com/
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