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Varius
New Member
9 Posts |
 Posted - 02/14/2008 : 22:16:17
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Dear Skeptic Friend Members and all those who read this post welcome,
As this is my first post I will begin with an introduction of myself I am currently attending College and plan to graduate in two years with a B.A. in Business with a minor in Ethics, Philo, Religion, and History lol not sure what I want to be when I grow up but that is beside the point. What I really seek is personal enlightenment which I think that everyone who is a Skeptic in one way or another really wants. Religion always seems to be a touchy subject with people no matter what their background or belief be you a Marxist, Christian, Muslim, or Pagan. I have read many of the post and I wish to bring up a question on religion and one which we can keep building on to maybe find truth or some clarity about the subject and not just make smart little commits on why we should visit Captain Ron's Bar and Grill down the street and for this study I need your help. Many view Religion as a great evil due to its affects on society (the Crusades- Jihads) and some would go a step further and say that extremism of any short is really the great evil. Because after all aren't the bad affects of Religion derived from extremist you could for example create a religious free society like that of Nazi Germany and reek the idle of the Master Race in the form of its own religion for example. I wish to look on this subject is their one true religion and is their a possibility for the existence of a one true God? Tell me your thoughts on the Subject Im not going to state whither I believe in a true God or not at this point I just want to use logic in its pure form to come up with this answer and wish for those who are members of this site to fill me with insight. For if we are truly unbiased Skeptics seeking truth we should be open minded toward the truth as educated men and women.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 01:02:47 [Permalink]
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Welcome to Skeptic Friends Network, Varius!
I've pretty much given up on a search for "personal enlightenment," except in a relative sense. But my knowledge, my integration of that knowledge ("wisdom"?) and critical thinking skills can always be improved. I think that the greatest lesson I ever learned is how little I know, or can know.
On religion and evil, I think the strongest link comes from the tendency of many religions (especially the theistic, Abrahamic ones) to create, use, and appeal to, an authoritarian mindset. And religions are (generally speaking and with significant exceptions) the main wellspring of authoritarian thinking in the world.
If you can get someone to obey and even mumble to an invisible, unevidenced persona in the sky, you have probably found a person who you can make to think and do all sorts of outrageous things, from blowing themselves and others up, to persecuting others for their private behavior, to ignoring or denying the reality of the natural world.
I don't understand your comment/question about Nazi Germany. Could you clarify this?
(Just a stylistic suggestion: For the sake of communication, could you please consider writing with more sentence and paragraph breaks?)
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/15/2008 01:05:44 |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 03:33:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Varius
...Because after all aren't the bad affects of Religion derived from extremist you could for example create a religious free society like that of Nazi Germany and reek the idle of the Master Race in the form of its own religion for example. I wish to look on this subject is their one true religion and is their a possibility for the existence of a one true God? Tell me your thoughts on the Subject... |
Have to correct one small misnomer. Nazi Germany was not "a religious free society" if by that you mean officially atheist. The Nazi's were primarily Christians, (Lutheran as well as Catholic). The Nazi's tried to absorb or incorporate the church into their racist ideology and even Nazify the celebration of Christmas. (There are newsreels showing the Nazi bigwigs celebrating and encouraging Christmas and churches.) They melded it all with Teutonic mythology and ritual. The Nazis also vilified and persecuted atheists along with Jewish people, because atheists tended to be free-thinkers and/or intellectuals who might question the authority of the State.
On the other hand, in the former USSR, the official policy of the government was atheist though the Russian Orthodox Church was allowed to exist primarily as a historic relique until World War II, when Stalin loosened religious persecution as religion was seen as a useful propaganda tool.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 06:16:32 [Permalink]
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I feel enlightened already actually and it certainly was not what I expected. Ive come to the conclusion that each person finds enlightenment from a different source with different conclusions. Perhaps you might find it in a bowl of Alpha Bits or a bottle of booze. A bit of a warning though, you may search your whole life and find enlightenment, but will you be ready if it is something negative? It may not be what you expect.
I think most of us would say that while one true God may exist, it probably hasnt ever interacted with humans, i.e. all religions are full of it. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 07:17:49 [Permalink]
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In order to find "the one true religion", one would first need to find some actual evidence of some deity. Good luck with that.
Also, perhaps you should brush up on your history. As others have said, Nazi Germany was not free from religion. I'll direct you to the works of Martin Luther for the source of Nazi philosophy and to Hilter's own writings.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 07:46:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Varius
Im not going to state whither I believe in a true God or not at this point I just want to use logic in its pure form to come up with this answer ... .
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I suspect there is an answer, but in the immortal words of Deep Thought: "You're not going to like it." |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Varius
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 12:28:42 [Permalink]
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Dear Skeptics, I must ask your forgiveness in that I wasn't clear with my opening statement what was clear in my mind at the time I wrote the article wasn't clear to you and that is not fair to you as the readers. I will try and clear up the confusion on the whole Nazi issue (probably should have used a better example) to lay a better foundation.
I will start by the very definition of Religion as stated by Webster: The service and adoration of God or a god as expressed in forms of worship in obedience to divine commands as found in accepted sacred writings or declared recognized teachers and in the pursuit of a way of life regarded as in comment on true believers as ministers of religion. As the statement mentioned by Webster, would you not agree that Nazism was indeed religious free due to the following remark.
Their isn't any one true god or gods in Nazism, it is the ideal of Nazism and its extremism that lead to its growth. It is true that you have Cult like practices such as Hitler and the higher members of the third Rich performing pagan rituals over a new Aryaian blue eye baby and having meetings at the I believe 1936 Olympic Stadium on the longest day of the year commutating the pagan festivals associated with it.
However if memory serves me correctly I may need to do more study on the issue for it has been some time. Wasn't their a conspiracy to remove all the catholic and Christian images of Christ from German controlled Europe due to the fact that Christianity calls Jesus God and that this God is the Son of a *Jewish Woman*. The Nazis might have a problem with that. So while their were in fact Lutherans and Catholics that supported the Nazi party don't you feel like the reason they followed Hitler was because the Germany economy had collapsed and that a person couldn't feed himself. Think of it if you and I are sitting around eating rats and this short angry person comes up with this plane to do away with the treaty of Versailles, give everyone a job, put food on the table, and make Germany a great power again we would follow him too. Hitler would then go along and finally take full control on the Night of the Long Knifes. I believe that you cant classify Nazism as an atheists or a Religions Sect because it was neither if anything it was a Fascist Cult by the very definition of the word. Cult: typically refers to a cohesive social group devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture considers outside the mainstream, with a notably positive or negative popular perception. It was the idle of Fascism that gained the popularity with the people which in turn lead them to vote for Hitler. Since all the people in Germany were not Nazis were did the dark and sinister beliefs of the Third Rich come from it came from the occult practices that rose up within the SS and Hitler's involvement with Crowley when he was in art school. My basic statement that I wanted to get across was that of the extremes of any believe being bad short of the post modernist view of no absolutes being evil not that Im saying that Im going this rote but that is the view I wanted to express in the opening statement. Hope this all makes sense if not ill try and come back to it and talk some more. thanks for reading.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 14:09:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Varius
I will start by the very definition of Religion as stated by Webster: The service and adoration of God or a god as expressed in forms of worship in obedience to divine commands as found in accepted sacred writings or declared recognized teachers and in the pursuit of a way of life regarded as in comment on true believers as ministers of religion. As the statement mentioned by Webster, would you not agree that Nazism was indeed religious free due to the following remark. |
No, because we have Hitler himself talking about how he is doing "the Lord's work" by exterminating the Jews. Check out "Hitler's Religion:You will find it in Mein Kampf: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work."
Hitler said it again at a Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926: "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude."
In a Reichstag speech in 1938, Hitler again echoed the religious origins of his crusade. "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work." And then in the conclusion:War's causes, of course, are complex, but it would be difficult to overestimate the disastrous role religion played in World War II. Distrust, fear and hatred of Jews was a lesson Hitler learned early in life. It was taught by his church and reinforced by his culture. It became his obsession, his version of "the Lord's work." That Hitler, that supreme villain of the 20th century, could see himself, and be seen by others, as "providentially" guided, protected and inspired should certainly serve as an ominous clue to the dangers of religious belief. And just because the Nazis also incorporated pagan rituals into their culture is meaningless, especially since "pagan" doesn't mean "atheist." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Varius
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 15:06:15 [Permalink]
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Special thanks to Dave for the clarification on Hitler, I did not know that Hitler was indeed somewhat Catholic but for lack of better knowledge at the present. I will leave you the win of that argument untill I have some more knowledge. Unlucky for me English is not my strong suit and I will try to make the situation more clear. Dave stated “And just because the Nazis also incorporated pagan rituals into their culture is meaningless, especially since "pagan" doesn't mean "atheist." It was not my intent to say that paganism is united in one body with atheistism. I have met 3 people in my life time of pagan beliefs who seemed very nice and in no way would I label them or associate them as atheist! I am getting off my main point that I want to look at but that's ok so long as I have access to the computer are discussion can go on.
This is the point I am trying to make typically with my opening commit. I wouldn't view Nazi Germany as religious in the since of its meaning. It seems to me that it was more of the ideal of Nazism extremism along with nationalism which in a since developed into a religion like ideal but was in its own right not a religion. I was trying to explain that even though their were aspects of pagan practices held by the leaders of the organization it doesn't make the ideal a religion? Rather the beginning statement of “ Because after all aren't the bad affects of Religion derived from extremist you could for example create a religious free society like that of Nazi Germany and reek the idle of the Master Race in the form of its own religion for example. I didn't want to state that the people involved in Nazism weren't religious or didn't come from religious backgrounds. It was the ideal of the perfect German state that I believe wasn't a religious state like that of say Islam for example. Hope that explains my opening point :) By the way how do you guys do that cool looking box when you cite someone I'll have to use that!?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 17:48:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Varius
By the way how do you guys do that cool looking box when you cite someone I'll have to use that!?
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At the top of every post there is an icon looking like this: .
If you click on it, you'll get an editor with the content of that post already in it.
Surrounding the content is the quote-tags that look like this: [quote] and the closing tag: [/quote] that marks the end. Everything written between these two tags will appear in box.
Also, I have a suggestion to make. Please throw in a few more line-brakes in your text, just to make it easier to read.
Whenever you like you can also click the Preview-button at the bottom of the text-editor. Then you'll get a pop-up window showing what your post will look like when you post it. It's helpful, because with it, you can double check that your formatting is ok.
Finally: Welcome to Skeptic Friends Network! |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 19:47:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
In order to find "the one true religion", one would first need to find some actual evidence of some deity. Good luck with that.
Also, perhaps you should brush up on your history. As others have said, Nazi Germany was not free from religion. I'll direct you to the works of Martin Luther for the source of Nazi philosophy and to Hilter's own writings. |
Personal aside: congrats on #4500, Dude![/off-topic] |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 21:19:47 [Permalink]
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| "National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."- Hitler |
| The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.-Hitler |
| "Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." -Hitler |
| 'It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." -Hitler |
| "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." -Hitler |
These quotes are from The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Table-Talk-1941-1944-Conversations/dp/1929631669
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 22:14:26 [Permalink]
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And from what I understand, when Hitler spoke of Christianity and Christians, he was talking about the Church. When he spoke of doing the "Lord's work," he wasn't talking about the Church, he was talking about God.
There are plenty of Protestants around who abhor churches, but love Christ. There are even a bunch of extraordinarily devout Christians who claim to not be religious. That Hitler could distinguish between God and Christianity should surprise nobody. The idea that his hatred of Christianity means that he wasn't religious is absurd. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2008 : 05:38:25 [Permalink]
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I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2 |
Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5 |
What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8 |
Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1 |
The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 10 |
The Catholic Church should not deceive herself: if National Socialism does not succeed in defeating Bolshevism, then Church and Christianity in Europe too are finished. Bolshevism is the mortal enemy of the Church as much as of Fascism. ...Man cannot exist without belief in God. The soldier who for three and four days lies under intense bombardment needs a religious prop.
- Adolf Hitler in conversation with Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Bavaria, November 4, 1936 |
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2008 : 05:41:09 [Permalink]
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I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.
- Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941 |
And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God; because then, as always, they used religion as a means of advancing their commercial interests. But at that time Christ was nailed to the Cross for his attitude towards the Jews; whereas our modern Christians enter into party politics and when elections are being held they debase themselves to beg for Jewish votes. They even enter into political intrigues with the atheistic Jewish parties against the interests of their own Christian nation.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11 |
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. ...Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. ...
- Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922 |
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Varius
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2008 : 11:48:22 [Permalink]
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I find this conversation very interesting and have learned some things, however my purpose was not to debate on whether Hitler was religious. But seeing that we have shifted the debate from were it was originally intended to go. I want to open up a new debate to continue to see if indeed there is a one true God or true Religion. Let us at this point to the fact that will all seem to dislike Hitler for what he did. Let us also agree that he was full of lies and much deceit to were we really can't take his own word as fact in his speeches. For it is evident, no matter what your view on his religious beliefs, be it he was Catholic or an Atheist that his main purpose was to deceive those he spoke to in order to achieve his desired goals. Who knows as much drug usage that was incorporated in his life he may have thought that he was god at the end.
The next topic I want to bring into question on a one true God or religion debate is the subject of multiple gods and is their possibility for such beliefs based on pure logic. I talked to my father the other day and he read in an article were the worship of the Greek goddess Dianna has appeared in some parts of the world again. This was kind of a neat concept since the worship of Dianna hasn't been prevalent for some time at least to my knowledge. However I will leave you with this idea to start this aspect of the debate the idea is not my own but is from Plato's Republic. In the conversation Socrates denounces the worship of the Greek gods on the bases that if multiple gods such as Zeus and Apollo did exist we would see the conflict of their attempts to get mortals to worship them all around us. I thought on this matter and came to the conclusion that he was right if there is a group of deities they would be in constant rivalry for the contention of men as mentioned in the early works of Homer and since we don't see Zeus and Apollo fighting each other we can then rule that if their was one true God and one true religion their has to be one God and not many based on logic? I am interested to hear your thoughts on this one.
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true religion ?
