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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 06/05/2008 : 07:18:40 [Permalink]
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| Yeah if people will believe that Smurfs are Demonic tricksers(they do), they'll believe anything. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 08:54:59 [Permalink]
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| [i]Originally posted by moakleyPoint being that I don't think you can support your rate of first century conversion assertion. That the only reason Jesus and Christianity has not been relegated to myth, like so many other religions, was the support of caesars, kings, and governments. |
It is clear in Acts and Pauls writing that it did spread rapidly. Acts 6:7, 12:24, 13:49, 19:20.
| Hate to break out Websters, but willingness and agonizing are what? In complete agreement? Something for everyone in the bible. |
Are you saying you cannot do something voluntarily and still agonize over the decision?
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 09:08:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
if some started spreading non truths then they could be corrected by others. |
How many, today, believe that Barak Obama is a secret Muslim?
How many, today, believe that Saddam Hussein was involved in the 9/11 attacks?
How many, today, believe that Al Gore claimed to have invented the Internet?
How many, today, believe that the bra was invented by Otto Titzling or that the flush toilet was invented by Thomas Crapper?
Communications is a zillion times faster today than 2,000 years ago, and access to correct information is mind-blowingly easy today as compared to then. Yet falsehoods persist for political reasons. Urban legends abound because they're much more interesting than real life. Your insistence that these sorts of things wouldn't have happened around an alleged historical Jesus should be rejected as wishful thinking and/or a denial of reality. |
I won't say that things did not get forgotten or changed but the main points would not have. You can go around and interview people today about the events that you stated above and get accurate information about the reality of what happened.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 10:32:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I won't say that things did not get forgotten or changed but the main points would not have. |
How do you know that?| You can go around and interview people today about the events that you stated above and get accurate information about the reality of what happened. |
And none of it - not one part of it - is accurately recorded in any current oral history. If you want to know the truth behind the myths, you need to read, watch and/or listen to the recorded history. We only know the truth about Crapper because despite his being a rather unremarkable plumber, there were records of his life made during his life. Not so Jesus. And besides, if you interviewed a bunch of random people about Crapper, more than half would say, wrongly, that he invented the toilet. How would you know that the majority is wrong if you began with no preconceived notions about the man? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 18:42:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
You can go around and interview people today about the events that you stated above and get accurate information about the reality of what happened. |
Obviously you could, but there's no certainty that you would. Indeed, if you limited your interviews largely to people who watch Fox News, and who think George Bush is doing a great job as President, my guess is that you'll also largely find confirmation that Al Gore said he invented the internet, and that Obama is a Muslim.
They would be mistaken, but they certainly wouldn't think so. People will believe and fervently argue for things if they want to. |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 06/05/2008 18:43:07 |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 19:33:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by smoke
You can hardly attribute this, as I think it is from the Old Testament. |
If you can quote chapter and verse of a formulation of the Ethic of Reciprocity from the Old Testament, that'd be interesting.
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I didn't see that anyone had provided Dave W with the citation from the OT ('scuse me if someone did & I overlooked it). Here you go:
Leviticus 19:18 "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD."
...Though IMO it comes across as somewhat less inspiring in the larger context of Leviticus 19:17-19:
"Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.
"Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
"Keep my decrees. Do not mate different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material."
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I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 20:14:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zebra
I didn't see that anyone had provided Dave W with the citation from the OT ('scuse me if someone did & I overlooked it). Here you go:
Leviticus 19:18 "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD." |
Meh. That's the "negative" version, at best. It certainly doesn't have the positive aspects, as in "be nice to your neighbor in the hopes he'll be nice to you back." The "love your neighbor" bit has always been too vague (some people don't love themselves very much). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2008 : 18:39:55 [Permalink]
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"Love your neighbor as you love yourself" does sound like a push for mutual masturbation.... |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 19:49:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
| Originally posted by moakleyPoint being that I don't think you can support your rate of first century conversion assertion. That the only reason Jesus and Christianity has not been relegated to myth, like so many other religions, was the support of caesars, kings, and governments. |
It is clear in Acts and Pauls writing that it did spread rapidly. Acts 6:7, 12:24, 13:49, 19:20.
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Do you have a source independent of the bible. Only by faith should anyone consider what the bible says as evidence for what the bible says. Since faith only requires that something be believed in order for it to be true, at a personal level, I don't consider it to particularly useful when it comes to determining the validity of an assertion.
[i]Originally posted by Robb
| Hate to break out Websters, but willingness and agonizing are what? In complete agreement? Something for everyone in the bible. |
Are you saying you cannot do something voluntarily and still agonize over the decision?
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Jesus had a choice? If he had decided differently what would christians be doing the first Sunday after the Paschal Full Moon. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2008 : 14:00:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
if some started spreading non truths then they could be corrected by others. |
How many, today, believe that Barak Obama is a secret Muslim?
How many, today, believe that Saddam Hussein was involved in the 9/11 attacks?
How many, today, believe that Al Gore claimed to have invented the Internet?
How many, today, believe that the bra was invented by Otto Titzling or that the flush toilet was invented by Thomas Crapper?
Communications is a zillion times faster today than 2,000 years ago, and access to correct information is mind-blowingly easy today as compared to then. Yet falsehoods persist for political reasons. Urban legends abound because they're much more interesting than real life. Your insistence that these sorts of things wouldn't have happened around an alleged historical Jesus should be rejected as wishful thinking and/or a denial of reality.
By the way, the "was it terrorists?" question was asked both of Challenger and Columbia, and apparently small fringe groups are keeping "open minds" regarding that possibility. There are hints on the Web that there is even a fake Challenger video that "proves" it was terrorism, although I haven't been able to find it.
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Funnily, I post regularly on Christianforums and noticed something recently. Fundamentalists, especially the zealos creationists, are very good at Making-Stuff-Up and subsequently being completely convinced about the stuff they made up. No matter how insane or against daily observation or knowledge. I am at this point convinced that if you ever wonder why the events in the gospels are as stated, all you have to do is debate a creationist. The reason for the gospels will be staring you in the face.
It is an interesting observation (I think, but then it is mine) and one about which I wonder whether any research has ever been conducted, or whether anyone else has noticed this before. Ask a question (where did the water go? Why do people have different skin colors?) and you'll get a completely insane, made up on the spot answer (It was transported to the moon! Everybody knows that skin colors change because of the wind circumstances!) and the creationist making the assertion will believe his own assertion as complete, revealed truth and defend it against all evidence.
So, consider me unimpressed with a "people wouldn't make something up and then die for that"-argument. Watch creationists and you know this just isn't true. People will do exactly that for no apparant reason. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2008 : 18:46:39 [Permalink]
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| Tom, I recognize your observation about making shit up like that. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2008 : 20:46:52 [Permalink]
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"(T)he theory of evolution was devised on top of the tower of Babel by the Babylonian king, Nimrod, and Satan." Henry Morris, founder if the Institute for Creation Research… |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2008 : 07:35:28 [Permalink]
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| Lol, impressive. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Jesus the Evidence
