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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
 Posted - 05/03/2008 : 21:47:23
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YO: In researching info about a documentary to air soon on the IFC Channel, I ran into these statistics....
In 2006, 91% of all known executions took place in six countries:
China 1,010
Iran 177
Pakistan 82
Iraq 65+
Sudan 65+
USA 53 (Interesting list)
America and Japan are the only post-industrial nations that now impose the death penalty. OY!
These statistics are according to the Death Penalty Information Center. Google DPIC to find the site.
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"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
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--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2008 : 04:50:08 [Permalink]
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<sarcasm>Wow, something Americans can be proud of...</sarcasm>
Ok, I know practically all members of SFN are against the death penalty. I see death penalty as a symptom that there is something wrong with the mindset of the general population.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2008 : 07:20:51 [Permalink]
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Those who so ardently support the death penalty here are the same ones who think abortion and stem cell research are murder, and who oppose assisted suicide for the terminally ill, and who try to force the families of brain dead patients to force-feed them against their will and against the wishes of the brain-dead person.
So there is no way to reason with them, they can't be influenced by a rational argument.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/04/2008 : 07:23:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
<sarcasm>Wow, something Americans can be proud of...</sarcasm>
Ok, I know practically all members of SFN are against the death penalty. I see death penalty as a symptom that there is something wrong with the mindset of the general population.
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Read your history, Doc. Historically, we are the ones with the fucked-up mindset.
The only thing less likely than the second coming of the Christ is universal enlightenment.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2008 : 12:06:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Read your history, Doc. Historically, we are the ones with the fucked-up mindset. |
Sweden performed its last and final execution 1910. There was a death sentence in 1917, but the inmate committed suicide shortly after the verdict, before the execution could be carried out. Capital punishment was abolished in 1921.
It puts Sweden ahead of the norm for Europe, but not the first. Norway was earlier, but botched its record with post-WW2 military crime executions.
The only thing less likely than the second coming of the Christ is universal enlightenment.
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The cynic in me agrees with you, while the optimist still believe that America isn't a lost cause.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2008 : 18:38:25 [Permalink]
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China 1,010
Iran 177
Pakistan 82
Iraq 65+
Sudan 65+
USA 53 (Interesting list) |
Now that the supreme court has ruled that lethal injection isn't 'cruel and unusual punisment', Texas alone might just move up to number 3. They have had a lot of prisoners backed up on death row ever since the defacto ban on lethal injections.
I sometimes am embarassed to be an American. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2008 : 23:15:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Those who so ardently support the death penalty here are the same ones who think abortion and stem cell research are murder, and who oppose assisted suicide for the terminally ill, and who try to force the families of brain dead patients to force-feed them against their will and against the wishes of the brain-dead person.
So there is no way to reason with them, they can't be influenced by a rational argument.
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I'm okay with the death penalty. I don't think what happens to the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world is an important civil rights issue. I think there really are some things you can do to forfeit the protections of a civil society.
I don't think abortion is murder. I would never restrict a woman's legal access to a safe abortion. At the same time on a personal level, I believe human life, even if it's just potential human life, deserves respect. I believe the decision to have an abortion should never be made lightly.
I'm fine with stem cell research. In fact, I encourage it. If knowledge can be gained and new treatments developed, I'm all for that!
I'm a little uncomfortable with assisted suicide, but I can see both sides. I believe no one should be made to suffer needlessly, but I also see great potential for abuse.
No, I don't think brain-dead people should be kept alive. I would cheerfully have pulled the plug myself on Terry Schiavo.
I guess I don't quite fit in your box, eh?
Edited to add:
I am an American. Even when I disagree with the policies of my government, object to the practices of my culture or remember the wrongs of our past, I will never feel shamed or embarrassed at being an American. |
| Edited by - Mycroft on 05/04/2008 23:19:57 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 03:11:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by Dude
Those who so ardently support the death penalty here are the same ones who think abortion and stem cell research are murder, and who oppose assisted suicide for the terminally ill, and who try to force the families of brain dead patients to force-feed them against their will and against the wishes of the brain-dead person.
So there is no way to reason with them, they can't be influenced by a rational argument.
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I'm okay with the death penalty. I don't think what happens to the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world is an important civil rights issue. I think there really are some things you can do to forfeit the protections of a civil society.
I don't think abortion is murder. I would never restrict a woman's legal access to a safe abortion. At the same time on a personal level, I believe human life, even if it's just potential human life, deserves respect. I believe the decision to have an abortion should never be made lightly.
I'm fine with stem cell research. In fact, I encourage it. If knowledge can be gained and new treatments developed, I'm all for that!
I'm a little uncomfortable with assisted suicide, but I can see both sides. I believe no one should be made to suffer needlessly, but I also see great potential for abuse.
No, I don't think brain-dead people should be kept alive. I would cheerfully have pulled the plug myself on Terry Schiavo.
I guess I don't quite fit in your box, eh?
Edited to add:
I am an American. Even when I disagree with the policies of my government, object to the practices of my culture or remember the wrongs of our past, I will never feel shamed or embarrassed at being an American.
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What's so far out of the box about that?
Erm, except for Dahmer; he wasn't sentenced to death but was murdered in prison. Which sort of amounts to the same thing, really.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 06:15:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
I'm okay with the death penalty. |
That makes you an ardent supporter?| I guess I don't quite fit in your box, eh? |
Everyone who doesn't support the death penalty ardently failed to fit in that little box. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 08:03:19 [Permalink]
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Mycroft said:
I guess I don't quite fit in your box, eh?
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Yeah, but you are "ok with the death penalty". Do you lobby your legislators to make sure the death penalty stays on the books? Do you attend a church where they preach about how wonderful it is to kill people for their crimes? ....
But even so, a rational person should be opposed to the death penalty based on one simple thing:
There are clearly people in prison for crimes they had nothing to do with. The conclusion is that we have likely killed innocent people.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 08:06:15 [Permalink]
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Doctor Mabuse......
Ok, I know practically all members of SFN are against the death penalty. I see death penalty as a symptom that there is something wrong with the mindset of the general population.
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Mabuse, would you mind laying out in a few dozen paragraphs exactly what your Critically-Thought-Out, logically defensible, reasons are for unconditionally opposing the death penalty?
Also, I would really be interested in hearing a precise definition of exactly what you consider to be the "general population" of the United States.
Dude referred to| Those who so ardently support the death penalty here |
and I am not referring to those shallow thinking individuals. You used the word general, and that is what caught my eye - along with your comment about America apparently being a lost cause.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 08:38:43 [Permalink]
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Buck, no cause is ever lost if there is at least one soul to fight in it's favor. That soul might be misguided, stupid or insane, and probably all three, but the cause lives on blessed in it's futility.
I am opposed to the death penalty largely on the grounds that Dude stated. I've read that there's another angle to it as well: due largely to the appeals process, it costs more to execute someone than it would to lock him up for life.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 09:30:07 [Permalink]
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mycroft wrote: | I'm okay with the death penalty. I don't think what happens to the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world is an important civil rights issue. I think there really are some things you can do to forfeit the protections of a civil society. |
As said by others - most of those on death row or who have been executed in the USA, and certainly most of those executed in China, were not the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world. The death penalty is wrong not because all human life is sacred, but because human legal systems are thus far inherently flawed, and the potential for killing an innocent is too great. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 05/05/2008 09:30:22 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 10:31:47 [Permalink]
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Marf.....
| The death penalty is wrong not because all human life is sacred, but because human legal systems are thus far inherently flawed, and the potential for killing an innocent is too great. |
How great, Marf? Statistically over a good long time window? How many innocent, or possibly innocent accused perpetrators of capital crimes have been erroneously executed? |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 11:11:10 [Permalink]
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Filthy.....
| I am opposed to the death penalty largely on the grounds that Dude stated. I've read that there's another angle to it as well: due largely to the appeals process, it costs more to execute someone than it would to lock him up for life. |
Filthy, I have read the same thing several times in several places. I have not yet seen the evidence for such a statement. It may well be true, I know not. Do you know of any statistical or actuarial evidence for the position that it costs more to condemn, sentence, imprison over years of endless appeals and finally perhaps execute a condemned person than it does to imprison them for life?
I have been trying for a long time to formulate a personal philosophy concerning capital punishment that makes sense to me, and facts as to the relative costs to the state concerning incarceration versus execution are one of the many factors involved in formulating such a ethic. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 11:39:04 [Permalink]
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| How about the fact that the death penalty is wrong because it does nothing to deter crime or rehabilitate criminals? Our justice system is allegedly not based upon retribution. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cruel, But Not Unusual
