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 Nitrofill your car tires
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Coat Of Arms
Skeptic Friend

USA
58 Posts

Posted - 05/14/2008 :  16:48:41  Show Profile Send Coat Of Arms a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A couple of months ago I took my vehicle in for service. The mechanic asked me how I liked my truck. I told him I was a little disappointed in the ride. He asked me about the air pressure in the tires. He asked have you ever considered replacing the air in your tires with nitrogen, I immediately think of the joke, Blonde walks into a garage and asks the mechanic to replace the winter air in her tires with summer air. He tells me they have to purge the air that is already in the tire before it is pressurized with nitrogen. I asked him if they suck all the air out before adding the nitrogen. This is what I can remember him saying. The tire is deflated to 5 pounds and then inflated back to the proper setting. The tire is then deflated a second time to 5 pounds of pressure, and again rein flatted back to the proper inflation, this takes the oxygen out. The cost about $30.00 with tax. I may have omitted a few details. I decided to read up the on the product. http://nitrofill.com/ http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...nitrogen-.html

The hype.
For decades nitrogen has been the choice for tire inflation of NASCAR, Formula One, The Tour de France, the US Military and many other applications where safety and economy are paramount concerns. Only the high cost and complexities of generating or storing nitrogen have kept it out of reach of the general public. Recent advances in nitrogen production technology have made on-site generation economically viable for the automotive service industry.

In 7 million miles of truck tire testing, nitrogen inflated tires lasted longer.

Tire failures were reduced by 50%
Tread life was increased by 25-30%
Improves steering
Improves handling
Improves braking
Reduces chance of tire failure
Dramatically slows pressure loss from permeation
Improves fuel economy
Reduces tire oxidation
Eliminates interior wheel corrosion
Reduces running temperatures
Decreases false alarms and activation of Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems.

All of the benefits of proper tire inflation can be achieved with normal air pressure unless you are a NASCAR driver doing 150 laps at 200mph.

They claim your tires will oxidize slower if you use the product. They must mean the oxidation of the interior of the tire surface; the exterior is still in contact with normal air. I do believe rubber will oxidize at some point in time. I believe my tires will wear out before that happens. So if you maintain tire pressure using free air, I can not see any oxidation occurring, Increase in fuel economy, steering, reduced tire failure by %50 or an increase in braking and handling.

Some of these claims may involve some chemistry and physics which I have no knowledge of. So I decided the next time I bring my car for service I will tell the mechanic I researched the product and I decided to use Nitroglycerine instead of Nitrogen. I had a blast. Then I tried Nitrous oxide. It was hysterical I couldn't stop laughing.

I'm not done yet. The auto engineers never stop to amaze me.

Lavender scented tires and in later versions, neroli (orange) or jasmine.

Rubber tires soaked in perfume. Read it here, http://www.kumhousa.com/pressrelease.do?newsId=156

And don't forget you got all this wonderful information from the new guy.



[Moved to General Skepticism - Dave W.]

Paul C.

Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 05/14/2008 :  17:03:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Welcome to SFN, Coat Of Arms.

Why use free air when you can pay to use nitrofill?

My skeptic alarms are ringing.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 05/14/2008 :  17:15:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Straight Dope

Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports did a test which shows that while the claim of less pressure loss is true, it is not really worth the money. From Consumer Reports:

We also used an oxygen analyzer to be sure we had 95-percent nitrogen purity in the tire--the claimed purity limit of our nitrogen system, which generates nitrogen gas from ambient air.


How is nitrogen expensive if you can retrieve it from ambient air? Or perhaps this is the "new discovery" that made it economical? Somehow I doubt it. I tried to find how one goes about getting nitrogen gas (more than 78% anyways), but have so far come up empty.

Edited to add: Welcome to the SFN!

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 05/14/2008 17:16:07
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/14/2008 :  17:39:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When you put AIR into your tires.... you are putting in 78% nitrogen!


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  02:37:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Coat of Arms & welcome to SFN.

I would suspect that after running over the first nail, the nitrogen user would switch back to plain, old air and consider himself the better off for it.

Tanked nitrogen can be had from welder's supply outfits such as AIRCO. They also have helium, which, if you put it in your tires, will save you money by making your car lighter, thus using less gasoline, and hydrogen in case you want to torch the heap for the insurance payoff and/or dispose of an embarrassing corpse.

In brief, nitrogen looks good in print and NASCAR loves it, but it's more trouble than it's worth for thee & me. It's best left to special applications.





"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  04:07:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just about the only place nitrogen comes in handy is in aircaft tires, as using it instead of air eliminates the sort of combustion explosion that sometimes occurs on landings and aborted takeoff due to hard braking and overheating. It's not so much the nitrogen itself, as the lack of oxygen that helps. But in autos (aside, possibly, from dragsters and race cars), plain old free air is just fine.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/17/2008 05:02:23
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Coat Of Arms
Skeptic Friend

USA
58 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  05:12:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Coat Of Arms a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the welcome. I did give the mechanic my honest opinion on the product. He said he only brings up the subject of nitrogen air when a customer inquirers about tires or air pressure. I don't believe nitrogen air is a scam. It appears to be just another questionable product which has only produced anecdotal evidence.

Paul C.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  06:28:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that you are correct and that your wrench is an honest man.

Nitrogen certainly does have it's uses in tires but in a typical street vehicle, air will serve just as well.

Interesting note: some farmers in cold climates put a few gallons of a salt water solution in their tractor tires to add weight in slick conditions.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  06:29:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Coat Of Arms

Thanks for the welcome. I did give the mechanic my honest opinion on the product. He said he only brings up the subject of nitrogen air when a customer inquirers about tires or air pressure. I don't believe nitrogen air is a scam. It appears to be just another questionable product which has only produced anecdotal evidence.
That depends on how you define scam. If you purchase a product that has little or no practical value after being told of the benefits you will realize if you use the product, I would call that a scam. You might be getting the higher level of nitrogen as promised, but so what? You paid for something that basically doesn't work, or the benefits are so minimal that it doesn't matter if it does work. Certainly, for the average driver, it's a waste of money and another way to line someone else's pockets.

As for there only being anecdotal evidence, the result of the testing that Consumer Reports did is not anecdotal and not very promising either.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  11:06:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reading through the Consumer Reports link provided by Ricky, the comments section is really interesting read. Comments of the whole range from gullible to knowable.

This comment was particularily interesting.



Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  15:55:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Welcome, Coat of Arms.....

This subject is devilishly hard to research and get unimpeachable information concerning the pros and cons. I found this opinion, but not much in referenced research:
NASCAR and the Aerospace industry use the gas because it contains no
moisture, and you are correct in stating that.

Keep in mind, moisture mixes with O2 and creates some terrible things. It
also has the ability to react with heat (caused by tire contact and friction) and
cause large fluctuation in pressure during heating and cooling cycles of
rubber.

Nearly all blow-outs are caused by "Carcass" failure. The Carcass makes up
the interior lining of the tire itself, and is largley (adversely) affected by the
constant rise and fall in pressure and heat. Prematurely, the Carcass will
proceed to age and oxidize increasing the likelihood of possibly dangerous
blow-out.

Nitrogen, while sparsely affected by heat, can keep a vehicles tires at almost
the exact pressure for nearly a year without loss of even 1 psi regardless of
the ambient temperature. Typical "Conventional" Air loss equates to roughly
1 psi/month. Pressure fluctuation and heat cycles play a large role in the
degradation and failure of "regular" air inflated tires.

Tire failures account for over 400 fatalities involving high speed motor
vehicle in the US every year, so maybe we owe it to ourselves, our families,
and those who surrouund us on the roads to consider new "avenues" for
solutions.

You can also research the Governments own involvement with unsafe tire
inflation by looking up the TREAD Act. Just Google it. There is a considerable
amount of collateral material that may influence your decision!

The only reason I become so excited about Nitrogen and want to spread the
word is due to the fact that it can make such a significant difference in the
Environment as well as the safety on our roads.

Did you know that it takes nearly 22 GALLONS of OIL to manufacture and
produce only ONE Truck Tire?! Imagine the reduction of emissions from
manufacturing facilities, which by the way have been regarded by the EPA as a
Hazardous Producer, if attempts were made to install and inflate Nitrogen
Nationwide. Ever seen a Tire Salvage Yard catch on Fire? They can burn for
sometimes YEARS! It would be nice to reduce the number of tires "thrown
away" every year.

Even if the only reason to become involved were Safety, I feel that 400
fatalities annually could be drastically reduced, and that would be reason enough!
It appears to me that paying any kind of substantial money for nitrogen gas in passenger car tires is pure consumerist frippery and probably some kind of conspicuous consumption ego trip or notice me cocktail party ploy! It doesn't appear it can do any harm (except to your wallet), but whether to buy it or not is kind of like buying a gold watch or a stainless steel watch!

But whether or not there is any value to nitrogen inflation apparently depends on who you believe and what specialty application you have in mind.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  18:21:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So Bill. Do you have a link to go with that referenced opinion?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  23:20:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kil.....

Damned if I can find it. It was a comment in one of hundreds of blogs and comment pieces on this subject that I thought was interesting because it added the dimension of environmental effect to the usual "marginal advantages" of most of the people commenting on this thing. Currently, a significant majority of comments seem to favor nitrogen but I think it's mass response to spin and hype

Besides the Consumer Union testing, I didn't find any formal studies that show significant benefits to the average driver. Anybody that wants a ton of opinions just needs to Google "Nitrogen in tires" for about 300,000 hits. I failed to bookmark it and lost it.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  08:02:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Google does this neat thing where it can find text on web pages...

link

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 05/16/2008 08:03:06
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  08:24:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ricky.....

I thank you kindly for introducing me to yet another wonder of the Internet and more of the genius of mssrs. Page and Brin.

I never thought of doing anything so simple!
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Coat Of Arms
Skeptic Friend

USA
58 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  08:26:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Coat Of Arms a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Originally posted by Coat Of Arms

Thanks for the welcome. I did give the mechanic my honest opinion on the product. He said he only brings up the subject of nitrogen air when a customer inquirers about tires or air pressure. I don't believe nitrogen air is a scam. It appears to be just another questionable product which has only produced anecdotal evidence.


That depends on how you define scam.


A scam is always a dishonest attempt to convince a person into parting with money. This usually involves fraudulent and deceptive tactics.

If you purchase a product that has little or no practical value after being told of the benefits you will realize if you use the product, I would call that a scam.


If a product has little value and does not meet the full expectations of the claim, a person might concede he is the victim of being ripped off. Absent any value would be considered a scam. And would constitute fraud.

You might be getting the higher level of nitrogen as promised, but so what? You paid for something that basically doesn't work, or the benefits are so minimal that it doesn't matter if it does work. Certainly, for the average driver, it's a waste of money and another way to line someone else's pockets.


The use of nitrogen in large truck fleets and the commercial tire industry are well documented and support these claims.The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has seen reduced aging of tires filled with nitrogen. The data does support passenger car tires could benefit by all the claims made for nitrogen. Consumer report did agree with (NHTSA) the results show nitrogen does reduce pressure loss over time. So there is some evidence that supports the benefit of Nitrogen. But I agree for the average car and driver it's a waste of money

[quote]As for there only being anecdotal evidence, the result of the testing that Consumer Reports did is not anecdotal and not very promising either.


From Consumer Reports. I didn't see anything about not promising. The last line of the report states. Nitrogen is not a substitute for regular inflation checks. Since the product falls under the category of an advertisement or promotion of a product, service, or idea, the anecdotal evidence is testimonial.


Paul C.
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