Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Our Skeptic Forums
 Social Issues
 same sex marriage
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Previous Page
Author  Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend

90 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2017 :  20:13:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Christian Hedonist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by ThorGoLucky

I have yet to hear a reasonable argument against gay marriage. I know a Jewish couple who are against it because marriage is about raising a family....yet they have no children. Hypocrites.
There is not a good secular argument against same sex marriage. When Christians make a secular argument they are just trying to make their religious beliefs the law of the land. The problem is, in my opinion, is that Jesus never taught or modeled advancing Christian teachings through governments, neither do any of the new testament writers. Jesus was pretty ambivalent about the authorities and taught for each Christian to tell others, help others and preach the gospel individually. Liberal Christians get this wrong also when they say Jesus would be for government programs to help others. Jesus would say "you do it" I think.

I think the Christian attitude toward same sex marriage is to not oppose government sanctioned same sex marriages and talk to people one on one and in our churches about what we believe and why. This seems more like the biblical model rather than passing discriminatory laws.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25828 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2017 :  20:57:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Welcome back, Christian Hedonist!

Originally posted by Christian Hedonist

I think the Christian attitude toward same sex marriage is to not oppose government sanctioned same sex marriages and talk to people one on one and in our churches about what we believe and why.
So what do you believe and why?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend

90 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2017 :  06:17:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Christian Hedonist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Welcome back, Christian Hedonist!

Originally posted by Christian Hedonist

I think the Christian attitude toward same sex marriage is to not oppose government sanctioned same sex marriages and talk to people one on one and in our churches about what we believe and why.
So what do you believe and why?
I think it is sinful as the bible describes. But I don't think that this particular sin (homosexuality) prevents a person from being a Christian. They have to work their sin out with god just as I do.

I assume you will have an objection to my characterization that it is wrong or that there is something wrong with them. My take is that there is nothing wrong with them that is not wrong with me, meaning sin. So, we need to have a loving attitude toward everyone but that does not mean we are untruthful about our beliefs.

As to the Why? I believe the bible is gods word and is another discussion altogether. I believe my take above is consistent with the teachings of the bible.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25828 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2017 :  20:56:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Christian Hedonist

I think it is sinful as the bible describes.
Where does the Bible describe homosexuality as sinful?

But I don't think that this particular sin (homosexuality) prevents a person from being a Christian. They have to work their sin out with god just as I do.
Well, isn't that magnanimous of you.

I assume you will have an objection to my characterization that it is wrong or that there is something wrong with them. My take is that there is nothing wrong with them that is not wrong with me, meaning sin.
So which sins of yours should deny the validity of your (presumably) religious marriage?

So, we need to have a loving attitude toward everyone but that does not mean we are untruthful about our beliefs.
I have a sincerely held belief that strawberry ice cream is an abomination, but I don't preach against it. Is "none for me, thanks" being untruthful about my beliefs? What other people do with that abhorrent confection is none of my business. Their consumption of it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. I simply do not care what other people do with that disgusting flavor. If they offer it to me, I politely decline.

Why do you care what anyone else does that affects you in no way at all? Why do you have a belief other than "well, I don't feel like that's something I would enjoy"? If everyone is sinful, with their own particular sets of sins, isn't thinking about other people's alleged sins just wasting your time? Don't "judge not, lest ye be judged," or "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" come into it anywhere?

Or are you one of the extraordinarily rare people who've had gay guys come up to them and say, "hey, you should divorce your wife and marry me, instead," and keep harassing you about it?

As to the Why? I believe the bible is gods word and is another discussion altogether. I believe my take above is consistent with the teachings of the bible.
The "why" part was for you to expound upon the teachings of the Bible. I assumed (obviously incorrectly) that the "why" part would involve chapter-and-verse quotations and your interpretations of them.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1390 Posts

Posted - 07/14/2017 :  10:45:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sin is fiction, invented to control people with guilt and fear.
Go to Top of Page

Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend

90 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2017 :  20:50:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Christian Hedonist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Where does the Bible describe homosexuality as sinful?
Romans 1:26-27, 1 Cor 6:9,

So which sins of yours should deny the validity of your (presumably) religious marriage?
I don't deny the validity of a homosexuals marriage as the US has defined it. I don't think they should be denied marriage. I really don't care if three people want to get married if that is what our society wants. I will not fight against these things. I simply think they are sinful. My marriage is not a marriage because the state says it is. I am married because God says I am. I don't know of any sin that I could commit that would disqualify my marriage. A homosexual couple married by the state can still be Christians and saved.

I have a sincerely held belief that strawberry ice cream is an abomination, but I don't preach against it. Is "none for me, thanks" being untruthful about my beliefs? What other people do with that abhorrent confection is none of my business. Their consumption of it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. I simply do not care what other people do with that disgusting flavor. If they offer it to me, I politely decline.
Well God cares so I care. if someone asks me my opinion I will be truthful about it. I don't picket pride parades or weddings etc. You seem to think that me merely having this opinion hurts homosexuals.

Why do you care what anyone else does that affects you in no way at all? Why do you have a belief other than "well, I don't feel like that's something I would enjoy"? If everyone is sinful, with their own particular sets of sins, isn't thinking about other people's alleged sins just wasting your time? Don't "judge not, lest ye be judged," or "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" come into it anywhere?
I care about their son because they need to recognize their sin to be saved. Homosexuals are not going to hell because they are homosexual, they are going to hell because they lie, lust, steal etc. just like everyone else. If they put their trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins they will be saved. Even if they are homosexuals.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25828 Posts

Posted - 07/18/2017 :  20:06:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Christian Hedonist

Originally posted by Dave W.

Where does the Bible describe homosexuality as sinful?
Romans 1:26-27
Ooof. God's wrath against the unrighteous. God allows people who do not honor or worship God (Romans 1:21) to turn homosexual. Having buttsex is a punishment from God, not a sin. Not only that, but all such homosexuals must also be...
...filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.- Romans 1:29-31
Honest. The "they" is the same "them" as in Romans 1:26.

Therefore, to say that Romans 1:26-27 shows that homosexuality is a sin, you must also believe that homosexuals are evil, covetous, envious, murderous, lying, heartless, ruthless haters of God. But yet you say there's nothing about homosexuality that can prevent them from being Christians? Romans 1 says otherwise.

Even worse, of course, is Romans 1:32:
Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die...
Yes, Paul says right there that homosexuals (the same "they" again) deserve to die. This, of course, is echoing the commandments in Leviticus (20:13, for example). But Jesus fulfilled the Law, didn't he?

Doesn't matter. The point is that in context, Romans 1 clearly says that God "gave up" those who weren't properly worshipful to homosexuality. Punishment, not sin.

1 Cor 6:9
Don't forget that the end of that sentence in in 1 Cor 6:10:
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Shall we assume that this is an exhaustive list, and so lesbians are okay with God?

But Paul is an unreliable witness. He claims that "every" sin other than sexual immorality "occurs outside the body" (1 Cor 6:18), but Jesus taught that even thinking about sinful acts was itself a sin. Paul cannot be trusted to know the mind of God.

I don't deny the validity of a homosexuals marriage as the US has defined it.
I didn't ask about the validity of secular same-sex marriages. I was asking about religious marriages.
I am married because God says I am. I don't know of any sin that I could commit that would disqualify my marriage. A homosexual couple married by the state can still be Christians and saved.
Except for Romans 1.

Well God cares so I care.
No, God has already seen fit to punish those not sufficiently worshipful with homosexuality, and you should declare such people to also be generally evil, since God "gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness..."

if someone asks me my opinion I will be truthful about it.
But you're not being truthful about it. You're saying, basically, "it's a sin, and they need to do what everybody else does regarding their sins," but Romans 1 clearly states otherwise. The sin was not sufficiently honoring God, and the punishment was that God allowed these people to be "filled with all manner of unrighteousness..." Homosexuality is just one tiny aspect of the horrors that "they" commit, and they cannot possibly be Christians while doing so, since this is a punishment for refusing to honor God.

I don't picket pride parades or weddings etc.
Why not? "They" are evil, according to Paul.

You seem to think that me merely having this opinion hurts homosexuals.
Sharing this opinion hurts homosexuals, just like sharing the opinion that blacks are sub-human hurts blacks.

I care about their son because they need to recognize their sin to be saved.
They can't, because their sin was to fail to "honor" or "give thanks to" God (Romans 1:21), and not their homosexuality.

Homosexuals are not going to hell because they are homosexual, they are going to hell because they lie, lust, steal etc. just like everyone else.
Not according to Romans 1. Read the Book, fercryingoutloud.

If they put their trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins they will be saved.
Not according to Romans 1. God has "given them up" already.

Even if they are homosexuals.
Only because God allowed them to become so, according to Romans 1.

Of course, all of this is ridiculous, anyway. Paul was saying that God has provided sufficient evidence of His Divine Goddiness that everyone should agree that God is God. Paul's "they" refers to anyone who denies what Paul saw as self-evident. Like me. But I am not a murderer, nor a thief, nor deceitful, nor malicious, nor a gossip, nor a slanderer, nor a hater of God, nor an inventor of evil, nor foolish, nor heartless, nor ruthless, nor am I a homosexual, despite Paul saying that I should be "filled with all manner of unrighteousness" because God should be punishing me for failing to honor God properly.

One counter-example is good enough to ruin a generalization. Paul was wrong.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2  Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 4.78 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000