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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 05/19/2002 : 11:48:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater> So you admit that the number we're dealing with, is less than what is usually told to us?
When did I admit that? And why would anyone ever think we would suffer so few casulities invading Japan? What I was saying was that even so "few" American lives lost would have been too many
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Sacrificing 250.000 Japanese civilians is okay?
Edgar Rice Burroughs, a reporter in the Pacific theater said, "There is no chivalry in complete war."
The Axis including the Japanese lost any claim of special treatment of their civilians by their treatment of ours.
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“They were waiting to see if that was all we had.” And you know that because… ?
Because they waited until we dropped a second bomb.
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Have you considered, that war-ridden Japan, on August 9th 1945, were trying to figure out what exactly had happened to Hiroshima? And that it had nothing to do with “tough mother-f—kers”?
Except we told them exactly what we had done, and what we were going to do.
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If we're to follow your line of argument, the Japanese would have kept on fighting until there was nothing left of the country.
Without the A bombs that is exactly what would have happened. We'd have been at war into the 1950's , loseing over a million of our own men.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 12:18:21 [Permalink]
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Slater> “When did I admit that?”
You haven't admitted it. We're usually told that an invasion would've cost between 100.000 and 250.000 American soldiers' lives. Did you subscribe to that?
“And why would anyone ever think we would suffer so few casulities invading Japan? What I was saying was that even so "few" American lives lost would have been too many.”
“The Axis including the Japanese lost any claim of special treatment of their civilians by their treatment of ours.”
So it was okay to sacrifice 250.000 Japanese civilians to save American soldiers?
“Because they waited until we dropped a second bomb.”
Fallible logic. The Japanese surrendered after Nagasaki, ergo the Japanese would not have surrender unless we dropped the bomb over Nagasaki. You don't know that.
“Without the A bombs that is exactly what would have happened. We'd have been at war into the 1950's , loseing over a million of our own men.”
Again fallible logic. You claim that the Japanese were tough mother f—kers that would've kept on fighting to the very end. If that was true, no amount of a-bombs would've deterred them. If one didn't why should the second? They suddenly ceased to be tough after two bombs? Why not one or three or four?
The Japanese officially surrendered on the 14th, five days after Nagasaki. Not three days, as the amount of time passing between Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The Japanese were ready to surrender in the summer of 1945, as the entry in Truman's diary is just one evidence of. You have no proof of your claim.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 12:36:42 [Permalink]
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I have very little time now, so I can't do my usual point-by-point. A summary will have to do:
1. I think, Omega, that you are confusing the arguments of others with my arguments. Mine on this subject have been very limited and mostly along the vein that you must establish your case first. Understandable, though, as you do get more comments to respond to than I do.
2. Regarding Alperovitz, may I suggest Maddox's response? It is one I use, though I no longer have a copy. "The Origins of the Cold War" or something like that. It was written before Lifton & Mitchell's book but some of the arguments can apply to that also.
3. I also recommend "Downfall" by Robert Franks which will refute the assertions about intent and, among other sources, questions Eisenhower's claims of being against the bomb prior to its use. Eisenhower, first of all, was not a big player in the Pacific theater and so was not as informed as others as to the status there. Second, his comments regarding his stance on the bombing came well after it and are not supported by Stimson's diary which Stimson was meticulous about.
4. I also recommend "The Atomic Bomb" by ????. Hell, I don't have it in front of me and can't even remember if the title is correct. Actually, this will seem in large part to support your position about the bombing being a political ploy to cow the Soviets, but a careful reading reveals this as an expected but secondary effect.
5. My question about what Lifton & Mitchell state were the expected losses of the bombing prior to it is significant. They say that expected casualties were only 20000-30000, but if the expected casualties of the bombing were the same, then the logic remains that using the bomb would be the best way to save lives. This is not to suggest that I agree with the assertion of the low estimates; I believe it is, in fact, simply wrong.
6. Which leads to MacArthur. On June 18, Marshall cabled MacArthur asking for his estimate of invasion casualties. MacArthur's first response was 105,000 combatants and 12,000 non-combatants. Marshall thought this was too high a figure to give to Truman and asked MacArthur to review it. MacArthur sent a second, lower figure that I cannot remember. It was the second number that went to Truman.
7. Still MacArthur, this time regarding his anti-bombing stance. He said he did not want the bomb used in a strategic manner to destroy cities. He advocated, however, their tactical use during the proposed invasion. MacArthur was an egomaniac of the highest order. Any means of ending the war that did not include him as the architect and executor was anathema. His reasons for being against Hiroshima were selfish, not altruistic.
8. Regarding the estimated casualties: Operation Olympic proposed an invasion of Kyushu with 400,000 troops. Estimates of Japanese strength on Kyushu in April were 300,000. By the end of July, it was confirmed that the Japanese had over 500,000. The number grew to 600,000 by August 6. In addition, the Japanese had created a kamkikaze air force of over 12000 planes, mostly old and wooden aircraft not visible to radar, specifically to fight the Kyushu invasion. Japanese Naval Staff estimates of the kamikaze effectivness were that 30-40% of the invasion fleet would be destroyed, including loaded transports. The Japanese Army Staff gave a somewhat lower estimate, but still significant.
There's more, but I really have no time.
So I'll bow out of this one, too, and leave the last word to you and others.
My kids still love me. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 12:41:35 [Permalink]
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I lied. One final bit.
On the day Hiroshima was bombed, a cable from a Japanese staff officer was sent to the Japanese Minister of the Navy. It described the devastation and estimated that 80% of the city was destroyed and casualties were estimated at 100,000.
The Japanese knew on the day of the first bombing what the damage was and yet did not surrender.
The message was decoded and made available to Truman on the 10th (a day after Nagasaki), upon receipt of which he told Marshall that any further such loss of life was too appalling to consider and so any further bombings were to be held in abeyance.
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It's been a pleasure. Keep it up.
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 17:24:45 [Permalink]
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Truman covered up murder with a lie by telling people that they attacked a military target. The means create the ends.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 17:44:26 [Permalink]
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it's simply amazing the way you post as if you know exactly what was in a person's head and leave no room for any other option. You must live in quite the black/white world.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 18:13:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
In addition, the Japanese had created a kamkikaze air force of over 12000 planes, mostly old and wooden aircraft not visible to radar, specifically to fight the Kyushu invasion.
I actually met one of these Kamkikazes in a bar in Yokosuka, he bought me a beer. The guy said that his class had been due to graduate on August 14th. That his mother had given him a sacred scarf that he still had. And that it was a great honor to be chosen to be a Kamkikaze, then he looked up at the ceiling and said, "but some of us didn't consider it to be that great of an honor."
So then I bought him a beer. Seemed a nice guy, glad to be alive.
Japanese beer is pretty dreadful though.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
Edited by - slater on 05/20/2002 18:37:52 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 18:22:02 [Permalink]
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Where do you get some of the things that you say, @tomic? Where did I read anyone's mind? It was a lie. What else do you call it? How can you support criminal behavior and talk about "evil" and tell me that there's something wrong with my thought processes?
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it's simply amazing the way you post as if you know exactly what was in a person's head and leave no room for any other option. You must live in quite the black/white world.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 18:30:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Where do you get some of the things that you say, @tomic? Where did I read anyone's mind? It was a lie. What else do you call it? How can you support criminal behavior and talk about "evil" and tell me that there's something wrong with my thought processes?
You seriously want to bring up the instance I used the word "evil" when I was quoting you in the first place? I'm afraid that overheated my irony detector.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 03:01:10 [Permalink]
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No, @tomic, you used the word "evil" which means that you see the world in terms of a battle between the forces of "good" and "evil" just like your idol Dubya.
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You seriously want to bring up the instance I used the word "evil"
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 08:38:11 [Permalink]
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The topic is there for all to see Gorgo.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 09:14:44 [Permalink]
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Here it is for all to see. You chop up the world into some narrow view of "good" and "evil." Black and white. No room for anything else.
"At least be fair Gorgo, you take the position that anything the US does is evil. That mirror image is just as ridiculous."
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The topic is there for all to see Gorgo.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 09:16:30 [Permalink]
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Would you call this person someone who sees the world in "black and white?" Either ure wid us or ure agin us, rahht ther pard?
"Spare me this anti-US rhetoric. Truman was trying to win the Second World War and save as many American lives as possible in doing so.
"
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 09:25:19 [Permalink]
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The record stands for itself. I used the word when I was quoting what you had said. That much is pretty obvious 
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 09:48:35 [Permalink]
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Again, you don't even know what you're talking about when you tell us what you said.
You weren't quoting me, that was your word.
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The record stands for itself. I used the word when I was quoting what you had said. That much is pretty obvious
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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