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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 05/21/2002 : 09:59:22 [Permalink]
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I am not going to further pollute this topic with this nonsense. Thanks for ragging up all those instances were we discussed your use of the word evil. Your last search yielded a result from just a few posts up and you even were so brazen to post that! LOL
You want to borrow a shovel Gorgo?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 10:00:50 [Permalink]
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And you've not bothered to back up a thing you've said. I did a search. I found your use of the word. Now you're telling me that you've found something? No. You're just blowing hot air like usual. Pollute? That's all that I've seen you and a couple of others do in these forums.
quote:
I am not going to further pollute this topic with this nonsense. Thanks for ragging up all those instances were we discussed your use of the word evil. Your last search yielded a result from just a few posts up and you even were so brazen to post that! LOL
You want to borrow a shovel Gorgo?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 12:57:23 [Permalink]
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Something I stumbled upon:
quote:
Q. First of all, I thank you so much for sharing so much with us. There was no warning whatsoever. Had the Allies warned Japan, could that have stopped the war? Would that be enough?
A. Well... there were a couple of times some warnings from flyers from the air. But those were immediately collected and confiscated by the army, taken away from the citizens. When you looked at the newspapers, every day so many enemy planes had been shot down, how many ships were sunk, lots of positive news all over the papers. But of course, we felt some sort of uneasiness, a sensation that we were losing the war. In June 1944, Okinawa was invaded by the Americans and we were told by people who took refuge in tunnels were killed by fire, flame throwers. We were educated not to submit ourselves. We should rather kill ourselves. We had in a way been warned by the US throwing papers to notify us that we had to evacuate but, of course, these papers were immediately collected by the government. And on the other hand, the government was saying that we're doing all right. But the people heard that we were not doing all right.
Emphasis mine.
From an article called "Testimony of Noriko Ueda, A-Bomb Survivor", found here.
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 13:14:10 [Permalink]
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I guess the Emperor was curious about how many people would be killed in a nuclear attack despite warning attempts by the US. I find it hard to claim a crime against humanity when warnings were given about what was going to happen. If you want to point a finger here I would suggest pointing it at the Japanese government at time.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 13:52:41 [Permalink]
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The Japanese govt still has a strange way of dealing with the reality of WW II.
Last year the class action suit of the Korean "comfort women" (Historians estimate up 200,000 women, among them Chinese, Indonesian, Dutch and Filipinas as well as Koreans, were forced to serve in Japanese military brothels. ---BBC) came to a conclusion.
It was decided that rather than compensate these women (at the time teen aged--and younger-- girls), or apologize for haveing them gang raped everyday for years. What they would do was to strike any mention of this horror from all their history books. The rational was that it served no purpose to teach students anything about WW II that didn't foster patriotism.
One wonders if the Germans struck all mention of the Jews from their history, or we threw out any hint that we ever had slavery what the reaction of the citizens of either country would be.
The thought in Japan seems to be that you can decree what reality is. That's what happens when your Emperor is also your god.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 16:22:49 [Permalink]
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Now Garrette has “left the building”, so I think it wouldn't be fair to reply to his questions and comments. But if anyone share them, please let me know.
Atomic> “it's simply amazing the way you post as if you know exactly what was in a person's head and leave no room for any other option. You must live in quite the black/white world.”
I'm inclined to agree with Gorgo. You used the word “evil” to describe what Gorgo supposedly meant. Although nowhere does he write that everything the US does is “evil”.
I'd also like a reply to my last post to you. I find it exceedingly rude that I spend the time to find references and testimony to my point of view, to be ignored as if it did not count.
Slater> I'd still like to know if you think it was okay to sacrifice 250.000 Japanese to save 60.000 American soldiers?
“What they (The Japense) would do was to strike any mention of this horror from all their history books. The rational was that it served no purpose to teach students anything about WW II that didn't foster patriotism.”
And?
TokyoDreamer> I'd like to point to the previous posts of mine, where there's a list of people both inside politics and the military, who said Japan was beaten and would've surrendered without the use of the Atomic Bomb.
Propaganda at war-time is usual. What the government did and what the ordinary people heard are usually two different things. Especially during wartime.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 16:30:33 [Permalink]
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Yeah, they had slanty-eyes, too, so it's a good thing Truman radiated a couple of their cities.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 17:02:10 [Permalink]
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All you are doing is ecouraging the boy Omega.
Gorgo, you may have impressed someone with this stuff, but I'm not impressed.
Omega, this evil stuff goes beyond this one topic. Gorgo has been using that term loosely ever since he arrived here.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 18:05:02 [Permalink]
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Slater> I'd still like to know if you think it was okay to sacrifice 250.000 Japanese to save 60.000 American soldiers?
I haven't answered this because I feel that it is a trick / out of context question.
I won't tell you that you have no concept of what war is. But I know that I didn't until I actually fought in one. Having been one myself, I don't believe in sacrificing American soldiers to save the enemy. There is nothing "fair" about this. Fair is not my concern. The times that I was forced to make the decision in real life I was consistent. The fact that I am writing to you now should demonstrate that.
This is not to say that I think that war is a good thing. Far from it.
If I had my way the Japanese never would have attacked Korea, China, Burma, Mongolia, Indonesia, New Guinea, Tonkin, Malaysia, Micronesia, the Philippines, Polynesia, Melanesia, Alaska and Hawaii. If I had my way they would have stayed home and lead peaceful lives.
If I had my way they wouldn't have collected American warnings that we were going to drop an A-bomb, but would have helped evacuate their people. If I had my way they wouldn't have ordered their people to stay put and Hiroshima would have been no more than a demonstration.
If I had my way all the American soldiers and sailors would have been left alone to lead their normal lives and not be called to die in some central Pacific hell.
But I don't get my way.
I do not believe in sacrificing the lives of American soldiers--- PERIOD.
"What they (The Japanese) would do was to strike any mention of this horror from all their history books. The rational was that it served no purpose to teach students anything about WW II that didn't foster patriotism."
And?
Those three letters speak volumes about your prejudices. That's some "blind eye" you are turning there.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 19:42:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
TokyoDreamer> I'd like to point to the previous posts of mine, where there's a list of people both inside politics and the military, who said Japan was beaten and would've surrendered without the use of the Atomic Bomb.
What I believe was relevant about the testimony of the lady who was actually there at the time was that she provides first-hand eyewitness account to the fact that the U.S. did indeed warn the civilians that they were going to drop the bomb.
Surely that changes your opinion on the motive of the government officials that ordered the bombing?
Warning civilians means the motive was not to kill civilians.
If they didn't want to kill civilians, why do you think they dropped the bomb?
Isn't this proof that they were after military targets only?
And if this is the case, doesn't that exhonorate them of any accusations of a CAH?
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 05/23/2002 19:43:59 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2002 : 04:03:22 [Permalink]
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@tomic, now I know you're doing this deliberately. I have only questioned other people's use of the word evil. I have not used the word myself to describe anyone. First I thought you weren't very intelligent, but now I understand that you're trying to make yourself look good. It doesn't work.
quote:
All you are doing is ecouraging the boy Omega.
Gorgo, you may have impressed someone with this stuff, but I'm not impressed.
Omega, this evil stuff goes beyond this one topic. Gorgo has been using that term loosely ever since he arrived here.
not just a good idea...it's the law!
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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opus
Skeptic Friend
Canada
50 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2002 : 08:31:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
I guess the Emperor was curious about how many people would be killed in a nuclear attack despite warning attempts by the US. I find it hard to claim a crime against humanity when warnings were given about what was going to happen. If you want to point a finger here I would suggest pointing it at the Japanese government at time.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Warnings???? There were no warnings that I have ever heard of. The whole operation was secret.
What good would a warnings have been in any case. The Japanese could not possibly be expected to believe that such a bomb existed.
Early someone posted that Macarthur wanted to use the bombs tatically and put it down to his ego. Ego or not it would have been the wiser course. To this day the Japanese do not think they lost a war which they started, but were the victims of a horrible weapon. As long a they have no large military their lack of contrition is not going to hurt us.
If I were cynical I might think that the main reason for dropping the bomb would be to wrap up the war against Japan before the Soviets became involved.
On the otherhand I just finished a midnight shift and my thinking might be muddled.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2002 : 09:01:06 [Permalink]
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Yeah, I think they key idea here is that the U.S. understood they were murdering thousands of people, regardless of the excuses after the fact. That is not said to sit in judgment of another age, but to put things in perspective.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2002 : 11:51:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Warnings???? There were no warnings that I have ever heard of. The whole operation was secret.
So you missed Slater's earlier post about the museum that has on display some of the very fliers that the eye witness Japanese woman that I referred to above also describes? The ones warning Japanese citizens to evacuate Hiroshima because we were about to destroy it?
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2002 : 16:34:00 [Permalink]
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Hey don't let facts get in the way of the speculation!
When this all started I was tending towards Hiroshima being a CAH but the leaflets change things. If warning were sent out then, as far as I am concrenred, there could be no CAH unless you mean the Japanese for hiding the warnings from the population. Now that was criminal. Just add it to the list of Japanese war crimes.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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