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Snake, thanks for the suggestions. I've had quite a bit of experience with cats, including bottle-raising kittens, so maybe I can do some short-term fostering.

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There are so many points to all the posts, I'll just put the replies on this one post and ramble on.
Any help you can do it appreciated, believe me. And yes, rescuers do it for the love of the animals. I'm a low man on the totem pole and don't know all that goes on but no one I know from the lists gets a dime profit for all their hard work of finding and saving, boarding, spaying, medical care, transporting, and on and on for helping these animals. The two ladies who bring me the dogs that stay in my yard for only a short time, were so greatful that I wanted to help they took me to lunch. That's what I got out of it, ha ha. But knowing that the dogs find a good home means so much.

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I don't think it pays to conflate such things as "mental illnesses" with the sort of behavior I posted about.

I'm inclined to think that a system that lets such a s***wad plea-bargain down to a trivial penalty is looking too hard at the low property value of a companion animal and being blinded to the qualities of the act itself.

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Like politics and religion there are so many views about animals. As has been said, all the way from love and respect to just property. So I guess it's difficult to have any strick laws and punishment for what those people do. Like with religion, I'm hoping education and bringing it to their attention, will someday open the eyes of people who are not dealing with the reality of the situation(abuse of animals)

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Mocker said:
I remember a few years back about a ranch in Texas (I think)that imported exotic cats,

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I saw that story on 20/20 or one of those kind of shows. It's disgusting what cowards people like that can be.

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On a similar note. There has been much in the news here about the culture of Korea and Japan because of the Soccer World Cup hosted there this year. Many people have taken offense to the Korean practice of eating dog-meat. I would not eat something like this, but I don't see how someone who is regularly eating dead cow, pig or chicken can call someone else babaric for eating dead dog.

Am I missing a point? Does the degree of rights and protection an animal deserve depend on its cuteness?

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Dr. Edell (radio talkshow host who has a medical program) actually brought up that same point. He doesn't preach but ended his comment by saying, think about it, if you don't like the idea of other cultures eating dogs, why are you eating a cow?
I myself have been thinking about it and am trying to get back to being a vegitarian, I've stopped eating pigs, because they are supposed to be very intelligent, and fish because I hate the thought of something being sufficated. I do occasionaly eat some meat when it's 'there' but would never buy it or cook it myself. Hey, it's a start! Then I think about Woody, our Cocker, he eats meat and doesn't have conflicts about it, so I don't feel quite as bad as I should about eating it. After all we buy it for him and it's his natural diet.
About snakes:
As you might guess, I love them. One of the most evolved animals.
I'd love to have one BUT, because nearly all of them eat other animals....usualy whole, usualy alive, even buying frozen mice is not a pleasent thought to me, I just can't bring myself to have a snake as a pet.
Lovely as they are.
If you are thinking that we buy meat for Woody, it's in a package, little kibble bits. Not the same, as feeding the intact animal. Ok?
The two kinds of snakes I know of that do eat vegies are small. LOL, what's the point of having a tiny snake. A python, now there's a SNAKE.



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*Carabao forever.
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Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they shall never cease
to be amused.

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Fiona and I just adopted a Maltese Papion cross – looks very similar to the picture of your dog Snake - and we love her to death (she manages to worm her way under the blankets EVERY night).

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Yes, I know the feeling. We call Woody the King of the house. He always gets what he wants. And is getting more pushy about it now too.
For example:
When he wants to play ball, he drops the ball at our feet. If we don't pay attention to him. He keep picking it up and dropping it until someone will play with him.

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We are both animal lovers and we can't understand how anyone would hurt them. I actually remember once I was a bloke hitting a dog with a stick quite hard so I ran over with a bigger stick and hit him behind the legs (aahhhhh, the impetuousness of youth) and ended up getting taken to court. I'd do it again though.

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Good for you.

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It's also the breeders you have to look out for, they can be just as cruel if they don't get the exact litter they want.

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Yes, that's a topic of conversation of our e-group also. Again education of the public is important. They should ask questions when buying a dog. And BYB (backyard breeders- individuals who are not puppy mills, but let their own dogs breed.) they need education about the over population of dogs and cats. Reputable breeders, according to people on my e-group, do it for the love of the breed. Not to make money. They try to improve the breed and weed out defects. Most that really care about the dogs wouldn't kill them if they didn't turn out to be what they wanted. They sell them as pets rather then show quality. The breeders who would kill, get a bad reputation. I havn't heard of too many that do that though. That's where education comes in, people need to learn where to go and who to deal with before they get an animal.

* * * * * *
*Carabao forever.
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Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they shall never cease
to be amused.

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jec96

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Again without wanting to defend the torturers, I have to disagree. They have shown a connection between X and Y is not a suitable justification to punish someone who has done X for doing Y. Punish him for torturing animals all you like, but punishing him for something he has not done yet, goes against my idea of justice.

Besides those connections that have been shown are often not all that substantial.
If you want, I am sure with enough effort, I could show a 'connection' between whatever your favorite hobby is and some really vile criminal behavior.

ktesibios
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Lars, you're correct that society generally views animals as property and that warps our response to animal cruelty. Without opening up the animal rights can of worms (I don't have a problem with being carnivorous or with using animals in worthwhile research), I'm inclined to think that a system that lets such a s***wad plea-bargain down to a trivial penalty is looking too hard at the low property value of a companion animal and being blinded to the qualities of the act itself.

The thought that originally formed in my mind was that not only are we not respecting the animal victim, we're not respecting the human.

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But how can you suitable punish someone for torturing an ownerless animal without giving it rights on it own. Do you measure the potential value the pet might have had to an owner, if it had had one?

There don't appear many alternatives to me you could either:

• Value animals only as property in terms of what they are worth to their owner.
  
• Do it like the ancient Egyptians and declare all Cats holy animals, making it a crime to hurt them.
  
• Grant all animals (or at least certain species) some degree of animal rights.
  

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Paulnib, they're legit. The animals they adopt out are rescued strays, litters born to pets whose humans didn't have the sense to spay/neuter, and so forth.

As far as the idea of therapy for abusers like the one I mentioned, that kind of behavior would probably get classified as one of the personality disorders, if not by the older names of psychopathic or sociopathic. Whatever the nomenclature, that's an area where psychiatry largely confesses itself powerless, with no established treatments, and, lacking either a robust theory of how such abstractions as empathy or conscience actually work, or a break as lucky as Fleming's, we're not too likely to see one.

I don't think it pays to conflate such things as "mental illnesses" with the sort of behavior I posted about. People with uncontrolled schizophrenia are more likely to be victimized than to be criminal; the "dangerous mental patient" is a convenient scarecrow for advocates of making psychiatric practice even more authoritarian and coercive than it already is, but not that well grounded in reality.

I personally find it hard to conceive of evil as a genuine medical problem.

It's good to see you do know a bit about your shop. Most people look little farther than price.

I tend to disagree a bit though with what appears your implication that we overgeneralize using psychological illness. I tend to think that the behaviour and practices of those who engage in the torture and killing of animals for no practical reason,(torture of animals really HAS no practical reason) is indicative of a sociopathic personality. They tend to be disassociated from feelings of empathy. Their actions tend to be self serving and geared towards gratification of violent potentialities with no concern for their victims. It is easy to view them as simply evil because of the heinous nature of what many do and the way they can appear to revel in it even when caught. They are aware of their actions and how unacceptable it is to society.

They simply lack the empathy to give a damn and you are likely to find they consider much of what they do to be the most natural thing in the world. Sometimes they express puzzlement that others cannot understand and ostracize THEM!

I don't undestand though where schizophrenic disorders fit into this. Maybe I missed a mention by someone else?

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NEW YORK (AP) -- Three cats mutilated with knives, then chopped up with an ax. A pet llama beaten to death with a golf club. A stray dog dismembered. Three raccoons fatally bludgeoned with a baseball bat.

In each of these recent cases, those charged with the grisly, unprovoked crimes were teenagers.

Animal cruelty committed by young people is not a new phenomenon, but it is attracting more serious attention than ever, from police, prosecutors, psychologists and animal welfare groups.

"Animal cruelty may be one of the first signals you're going to see as a warning of future aggressive behavior and violence," said psychologist Mary Lou Randour. "Until recently, it's been below the radar screen -- teachers and mental health professionals haven't been attuned to it."

Among the developments that have pushed the topic onto the radar screen:

The Humane Society of the United States highlighted the problem of youth animal abuse in its annual report on animal cruelty, released in April. Of more than 1,000 cruelty cases examined for 2001, 20 percent of the intentionally malicious acts were committed by teens, 95 percent of them males, the society said.
Maryland-based Psychologists for the Ethical Treatment of Animals is unveiling a new treatment program designed specifically for young people who abuse animals. One of the aims is to enable a young abuser to empathize with animals, said Randour, the group's director of programs.
The federal Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention released a report in September on animal abuse by young people. Its author, Utah State University psychologist Frank Ascione, said the problem has been "underreported and understudied," and suggested that greater scrutiny "may add one more piece to the puzzle of understanding and preventing youth violence."

Some of the recent incidents have stunned authorities with their seemingly senseless barbarity. Thomas Doetsch, a juvenile court referee in Michigan's Wayne County, said he lost sleep thinking about the case of the 16-year-old boy who dismembered a stray dog and took the body parts to his school.

In Colorado, the case of two boys who set a cat afire prompted the legislature to consider toughening animal-cruelty penalties. Many lawmakers shared public outrage that the boys, 16 and 17, spent only two days in jail after last year's assault, but a bill to make a repeat animal-cruelty offense a felony died in committee in April.

The mixed-breed cat, Westy, was adopted by a veterinary hospital worker after undergoing three major surgeries for skin grafts and amputations and painful rehabilitation to regain mobility. A prosecutor said the two teens were curious what would happen if the cat's tail was set afire "like the cartoons."

With 35 states now classifying some forms of animal abuse as a felony, some young abusers do face tough penalties.

In Florida's Pinellas County, Robert Pettyjohn received a five-year prison sentence in April for killing one llama and partially blinding a second in a February 2001 attack when he was 18. Pettyjohn was convicted earlier of shooting bulls with arrows.

In Amsterdam, New York, Nicholas Brodsky, 18, and Carly Furman, 16, face up to two years in jail and $5,000 fines if convicted in the mutilation and killing of three cats. The teens, jailed while awaiting trial, are among the first people charged under New York's so-called Buster's Law, which toughens punishment for animal cruelty and was named after a kitten burned to death in 1997.

Teenagers have become a priority of the First Strike Campaign, a Humane Society initiative seeking to raise awareness of the link between animal cruelty and human violence. The campaign's literature includes background on serial killers and mass murderers who in their youth tormented animals.

Virginia Prevas, manager of the First Strike Campaign, says mandatory counseling is probably the best initial option in cases where a youth is arrested for animal cruelty.

"Often these kids have experienced violence themselves, or witnessed violence, and they're dealing with a lot of emotional problems," she said.

However, Prevas believes incarceration can be warranted in serious cases.

"You have to look on a case-by-case basis," she said. "Was this a calculated act of animal cruelty as opposed to something where there's an anger management problem?"

Ascione, in his report for the Justice Department, said several studies have found that animal abuse is more likely among children who have been physically or sexually abused.

"Even if the adult family members do not abuse animals, some children may express the pain of their own victimization by abusing vulnerable family pets," he wrote.

Randour, noting that even preschoolers can engage in animal abuse, says younger children are more likely than teenagers to benefit from abuse prevention programs.

However, Nancy Katz, who works with juvenile offenders in Virginia's Fairfax County, believes the right kind of program can work well with teens. She is director of the Shiloh Project, which pairs troubled youths with dogs from local animal shelters.

"The kids don't realize that animals can feel -- they don't understand that you don't have to be physically abusive to an animal in order to train it," she said.

Many of the youths Katz deals with were themselves mistreated during childhood, and she sees some analogies between them and the dogs.

"You can use a two-by-four to get a dog to obey you, but what are you creating?" she asked.

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