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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 05/27/2002 : 17:47:35
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
 Posted - 05/27/2002 : 18:41:57 [Permalink]
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People who abuse animals will abuse humans if given the chance (and the excuse). They might take it out on old people who can no longer defend themselves. They might take it out on children who also cannot defend themselves. They might take it out on anyone who is less strong and less able to defend themselves.
Then again, these people are sick (women can torment people also, so I refuse to single out the male of the species as the only potential offender).
I think psychotics need a padded and well-locked cell far away from doing any further damage to others (including animals). They must be mentally ill, so I would not do any damage to them, because that would be behaving in kind. I am not for the death penalty. The main thing is to keep them away from everybody and everything so that they have only themselves to harm.
There is medication for a great many problems. Dangerous people who refuse to take their psychiatric medications must be forcibly restrained.
It is just sickening to know that there are such people walking around free out there. They could do harm to you or to me if they are not stopped.
I cannot really think of a proper solution which would solve the problem without making society the torturers in return.
ljbrs  [???]
"Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error." Goethe |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2002 : 20:45:39 [Permalink]
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This behavior is one of the indicators of a serial killer. I believe Jeffrey Dhalmer started killing pets at around 10 years of age, as did John Wayne Gacey. These are just off the top of my head, so don't quote me on the ages.
What do to with 'em? I guess you'd have to keep them somewhere such that they were the powerless ones. They would almost need a personal handler of some sort, or some other form of constant monitoring.
And of course, various forms of psychotherapy in an attempt to "cure" them.
And if they're found to be incurable, use them for (in the lyrics of J Giles) "experiments previously performed on insects and other small, meaningless, creatures" I'm not serious about that. But I really don't know what to do if they're deemed "incurable". Maybe shovel large piles of dirt from here to there until they die? But maybe that's torture.
I voted for the death penalty, but that was pertaining to extreme cases of murder/rape/violence against humans. I wouldn't favour the same punishments for the same crimes on animals as the leap in frame of reference would not have been made yet.
If you think it's work, you're doing it wrong. |
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Paulnib68
New Member
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2002 : 20:47:23 [Permalink]
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Another concern if searching the pet shop for puppies or cats. Many of the pups come from "puppy mills". These places make Auschwitz look like the Hilton. Do a search on em sometime. If your concern runs that deep ask your shop if they really know where their animals come from.
These people are basically seriously disturbed individuals sating psychotic desires-tendencies. Their sociopaths. Unfortunately, they can and do progress to humans when their fear of repercussion dwindles and they begin to feel less pleasure from the animal killings.
Theres prolly a lot more of em out there than we think. I believe the ratio is supposed to be 1 in 25. Thats scary.
Skeptics Tricks |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2002 : 21:08:35 [Permalink]
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I hate to take the side of these bastards here, but do you really think that anybody who lives out his problems with torturing animals is automatically a danger to human beings?
There are plenty of reasonably well adjusted people who delight in hunting and killing animals. Do you think that everyone of those hunters is in danger of extending his sport to human game given a suitable rationalization?
I agree that those that like to kill or torture animals already have some of the barriers down that would prevent the rest of us from killing or torturing a fellow human being, but you can't punish someone because he might become a danger to society.
The other point is the value of animal live.
In our society animals are mostly regarded as things, that humans might have an emotional attachement to. Legally in many places killing someones dog is no different from destroying an inanimated possesion of his.
Recently here in Germany the preventation of cruelty to animals has been included as one of the aims of our constitution. I don't think that this was good move.
I don't like to see animals (at least mammals or birds) hurt, but I don't know how I should feel about giving them rights of their own. I can live with giving them a right not to be treated cruelly, but somehow I think that this might set a precendant for giving them further rights that I might not agree with.
Edited by - Lars_H on 05/27/2002 21:10:27 |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2002 : 22:21:12 [Permalink]
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Let's not start dissing on hunters. My husband hunts, and it keeps the freezer full. (I make a venison chili that's almost better than sex)
I think the concern is over people who torture animals for the pure fun of it. I forget who posted it, but yes, many of our society's worst sickos started out by torturing small animals at a young age.
Do you think early intervention would help? With all due respect to ljbrs, whom I admire greatly, most of these people are male. Hence, people tend to say "its a phase" or "boys will be boys", and do nothing. After the frozen human heads are found in the freezer, its a little late.
Now as far as the bastard who's tortured to death multiple kittens: make each kitten a separate charge. Ups both jail time and fines.
Lisa
We have enough youth. We need a fountain of smart. |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2002 : 23:15:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Let's not start dissing on hunters. My husband hunts, and it keeps the freezer full. (I make a venison chili that's almost better than sex)
I did not mean people who hunt for food. Sorry if I offended anyone. I meant those people who hunt the joy of the kill or for having killed. I mean the kind of people who travel to a foreign country just to bring back a pelt of bear or a wolf that they then hang on their walls. The kind of people who need the help of a taxidermist to prove their manliness.
quote:
I think the concern is over people who torture animals for the pure fun of it. I forget who posted it, but yes, many of our society's worst sickos started out by torturing small animals at a young age.
I have nothing against punishing people who abuse animals because they abuse animals. I have however a problem with persecuting animal-abusers because they might grow into a danger to society.
quote:
Do you think early intervention would help? With all due respect to ljbrs, whom I admire greatly, most of these people are male. Hence, people tend to say "its a phase" or "boys will be boys", and do nothing. After the frozen human heads are found in the freezer, its a little late.
I guess i have to agree on the gender difference part. Females tend to, in my experience at least, express their cruelty a lot subtler than torturing animals. Most of the cruelty to animal done by females I have witnessed was not based on deliberate cruelty but plain ignorance and stupidity.
quote:
Now as far as the bastard who's tortured to death multiple kittens: make each kitten a separate charge. Ups both jail time and fines.
Lisa
We have enough youth. We need a fountain of smart.
Edited by - Lars_H on 05/27/2002 23:22:05 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2002 : 00:39:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
I happened to be at my favorite pet shop today, buying supplies.
This shop, besides selling pet-related stuff, does adoptions. There are usually a few animals there, waiting for homes, so that every time I'm there I have to keep reminding myself "You have four already. You're doing your bit. You can't handle any more".
At the register they had a bulletin posted, with a picture of a guy and the notation "DO NOT ADOPT TO THIS MAN".
I don't have time to post and didn't plan to but you've touched a nerve.
I am in rescue, not as much as some, only take in short term foster Dalmatians from time to time. I'm also on the Cocker e-group on Yahoo. So I hear ALL the sad stories as bad and worse then you've described. There are DNA (do not adopt) warning that go all over the web once in a while. It's very sad to know what goes on but, I try to do my little part to help. It's more than I am able to do and not enough, however I couldn't just NOT do nothing. So I push myself a little bit further.
If you or anyone cares about our fellow creatures that we live with on this planet, there are many ways to get involved. Somethings only take a few moments of your time to just post to lists about an animal who needs help OR post DNA's about such people that you talked about. If you want to find out more, do a search on Yahoo (or anywhere I guess) and find a group to get on to see what you can do to help.
I feel it's one way of contributing to the world. Action instead of words.
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*Carabao forever.
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Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they shall never cease
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2002 : 01:09:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
The other point is the value of animal live.
In our society animals are mostly regarded as things, that humans might have an emotional attachement to. Legally in many places killing someones dog is no different from destroying an inanimated possesion of his.
Recently here in Germany the preventation of cruelty to animals has been included as one of the aims of our constitution. I don't think that this was good move.
I don't like to see animals (at least mammals or birds) hurt, but I don't know how I should feel about giving them rights of their own. I can live with giving them a right not to be treated cruelly, but somehow I think that this might set a precendant for giving them further rights that I might not agree with.
Unfortunatly Lars, there are so many who think like you. And I don't agree with them, (probably the majority), who want other than human animals to stay below humans. I mean, to be thought of as having less than the same status as humans. That is also a controversy here in the USA too.
If you were on an e-group such as the Cocker list I'm on you would know that people love and treat their dogs as if they were their human children. And rightfully so, IMO. Woody, our Cocker is very clever and intelligent, he thinks and feels so why should he be thought of as having any less rights. These animals are very much a part of the family and no less important.
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*Carabao forever.
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Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they shall never cease
to be amused. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2002 : 01:45:16 [Permalink]
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Nothing pisses me off more than people hurting defenceless animals.
Fiona and I just adopted a Maltese Papion cross – looks very similar to the picture of your dog Snake - and we love her to death (she manages to worm her way under the blankets EVERY night). We are both animal lovers and we can't understand how anyone would hurt them. I actually remember once I was a bloke hitting a dog with a stick quite hard so I ran over with a bigger stick and hit him behind the legs (aahhhhh, the impetuousness of youth) and ended up getting taken to court. I'd do it again though.
Now to go hunting for food I have no problem about. When I was a lad Dad used to take me fly fishing in the Otway Ranges in Victoria. Once we caught two fish, the rest would go back. The first two went into Dads smoker in the backyard (deeeeeeeelishhhus).
Send them to jail with Bubba and see what it is like to have the bejesus scared out of them, that's what I say.
It's also the breeders you have to look out for, they can be just as cruel if they don't get the exact litter they want.
"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2002 : 03:22:41 [Permalink]
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I too, do rescue and rehab with a small conservation society. I specalize in reptiles. I also do problem snake removal and relocation. We are all licensed by the state of NC.
What I see the most of is neglect. Last year, I was called to pick up a green iguana. The unfortunate animal was kept in a fish tank way too small for it - it couldn't even turn around - and was caked with feces. It also had an infected hot rock burn as well as suffering from lack of sunlight and an improper diet.(I can never remember the acyromin for that). I lost that one. On the advice of the vet, I euthanized it. It was not the first. It will not be the last.
Every time I get one in such bad shape, I want to get out of rehab. I would not do this for money. You couldn't pay me enough.
I think that neglect and ignorance as to the care of an animal is just as bad as the asshole that intentionally abuses one. Were it up to me, a lot of people would suffer much to the same degree as the animals they've abused.
As to hunting, I've nothing against it, just don't do it. I did at one time and was pretty good at it. But I've never bothered with 'trophies' and fail to understand the attraction of a dead deer's head on the wall.
A while back, I read about a guy that purchased or was given a litter of puppies. He took them home and fed them to his two pythons. There was a great uproar about it. So, here's my question: Is this animal abuse or not?
Sorry if I've done a hijack.
f
If I do not return to the pulpit this weekend, millions of people will go to hell.
-- Rev. Jimmy Swaggart, 20 May 1988
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2002 : 07:35:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
A while back, I read about a guy that purchased or was given a litter of puppies. He took them home and fed them to his two pythons. There was a great uproar about it. So, here's my question: Is this animal abuse or not?
I don't know much about pythons and their eating habits. I guess it would depend on wether puppies are good for pythons.
As for the puppies, I guess that is live. Unless you can get the snake to become a vegetarian something had to die for the snake to live. I don't see why feeding it puppies would be overall crueler then using for example mice.
On a similar note. There has been much in the news here about the culture of Korea and Japan because of the Soccer World Cup hosted there this year. Many people have taken offense to the Korean practice of eating dog-meat. I would not eat something like this, but I don't see how someone who is regularly eating dead cow, pig or chicken can call someone else babaric for eating dead dog.
Am I missing a point? Does the degree of rights and protection an animal deserve depend on its cuteness?
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Mocker Wall
New Member
11 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2002 : 16:27:12 [Permalink]
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On the subject of hunting, I remember a few years back about a ranch in Texas (I think)that imported exotic cats, drugged them and let hunters who were too lazy to get their butts on a plane to Africa and too chicken to face a sober lion in the wild to go on a "Safari" hunt. That really pissed me off!
"Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he was nailed to the cross. |
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jec96
Skeptic Friend
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2002 : 19:27:39 [Permalink]
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Lars, i do believe there has been a definate connection shown between animal torture and serial killing/ human torture and murder...seems to a progressive staged thing, and is a bit scarey besides. Beyond a fin, this person needs serious help. The urge to torture an animal i foreign to me, and I am sure, to most in this forum. (Though the Bubba idea does have merit)
-It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2002 : 21:45:29 [Permalink]
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Wow, quite a list of responses.
Snake, thanks for the suggestions. I've had quite a bit of experience with cats, including bottle-raising kittens, so maybe I can do some short-term fostering.
Paulnib, they're legit. The animals they adopt out are rescued strays, litters born to pets whose humans didn't have the sense to spay/neuter, and so forth.
As far as the idea of therapy for abusers like the one I mentioned, that kind of behavior would probably get classified as one of the personality disorders, if not by the older names of psychopathic or sociopathic. Whatever the nomenclature, that's an area where psychiatry largely confesses itself powerless, with no established treatments, and, lacking either a robust theory of how such abstractions as empathy or conscience actually work, or a break as lucky as Fleming's, we're not too likely to see one.
I don't think it pays to conflate such things as "mental illnesses" with the sort of behavior I posted about. People with uncontrolled schizophrenia are more likely to be victimized than to be criminal; the "dangerous mental patient" is a convenient scarecrow for advocates of making psychiatric practice even more authoritarian and coercive than it already is, but not that well grounded in reality.
I personally find it hard to conceive of evil as a genuine medical problem.
Lars, you're correct that society generally views animals as property and that warps our response to animal cruelty. Without opening up the animal rights can of worms (I don't have a problem with being carnivorous or with using animals in worthwhile research), I'm inclined to think that a system that lets such a s***wad plea-bargain down to a trivial penalty is looking too hard at the low property value of a companion animal and being blinded to the qualities of the act itself.
The thought that originally formed in my mind was that not only are we not respecting the animal victim, we're not respecting the human.
Thanks everyone for taking the time to respond.
Ford, there's an infinite number of monkeys outside who want to talk to us about this script for Hamlet they've worked out. |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2002 : 00:52:30 [Permalink]
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jec96
quote:
Lars, i do believe there has been a definate connection shown between animal torture and serial killing/ human torture and murder...seems to a progressive staged thing, and is a bit scarey besides.
Again without wanting to defend the torturers, I have to disagree. They have shown a connection between X and Y is not a suitable justification to punish someone who has done X for doing Y. Punish him for torturing animals all you like, but punishing him for something he has not done yet, goes against my idea of justice.
Besides those connections that have been shown are often not all that substantial.
If you want, I am sure with enough effort, I could show a 'connection' between whatever your favorite hobby is and some really vile criminal behavior.
ktesibios
quote:
Lars, you're correct that society generally views animals as property and that warps our response to animal cruelty. Without opening up the animal rights can of worms (I don't have a problem with being carnivorous or with using animals in worthwhile research), I'm inclined to think that a system that lets such a s***wad plea-bargain down to a trivial penalty is looking too hard at the low property value of a companion animal and being blinded to the qualities of the act itself.
The thought that originally formed in my mind was that not only are we not respecting the animal victim, we're not respecting the human.
But how can you suitable punish someone for torturing an ownerless animal without giving it rights on it own. Do you measure the potential value the pet might have had to an owner, if it had had one?
There don't appear many alternatives to me you could either:
- Value animals only as property in terms of what they are worth to their owner.
- Do it like the ancient Egyptians and declare all Cats holy animals, making it a crime to hurt them.
- Grant all animals (or at least certain species) some degree of animal rights.
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